That you would never dream, in a million years, of asking a woman to give you sex or make love with you in order for you to scratch an itch.
You know I love you Corri but I gotta ask why not? If HD were married to me ( a woman although I will grant you perhaps a different sort of women than MsHD) and he were to say to me in a friendly manner "I'm feeling horny wanna f*ck?", I'd maybe think about it for 10 seconds and then I'd say "Sure, why not? This book is in a draggy part." and I'm sure he'd apply the calamine if I was itchy too. I think that maybe what you meant to convey was that HD would never dream of asking that of a woman against her will or in a way that was coercive. IMO it's all sort of chicken and the egg. Her bad attitude about sex is the precondition that makes his asking for it for whatever reason a big deal. I get what you're saying because I was married to the man who told me that food didn't taste as good when I didn't "make it with love" but the fact of the matter is that I served that guy dinner 6 nights out of 7 sometimes with love and sometimes just because people get hungry so I don't know why MsHD can't grow up and do the same.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mrs. HD can't do it, because she isn't there yet. To her, ALL FORMS of sex and love making are just scratching an itch. That is the problem. She has no respect for it, no respect for HD, and therefore, sees it as completely a teeth gritting experience.
Technically, no, there is nothing wrong with fcking because you are horny. An LD woman does NOT respond to "I"m horny, wanna fck?" She doesn't respond, period.
She doesn't respond because she doesn't HAVE to. She doesn't respond because she thinks she doesn't WANT to, because she thinks she's tired, stressed, fat, whatever.
She doesn't respond because she does not feel attracted or attractive.
The NOPs may have initiated a schedule, and that may have fixed the initial problem with frequency... but NOP lost the anger, was kind, was consistent... and then he lost interest.
He removed every barrier Mrs. NOP had... she learned a new respect for him... in a slightly different way... and had to look to herself.
Now, I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was the respect, in the end, that turned the ship.
I don't know whether this is really possible or exactly how it would happen. it just seems like this is where HD would want the off-balance to occur with his wife. She would be in an incredibly vulnerable position in this case.
Ok, playing devil's advocate here... If I were MrsHD, I would see nothing off balance at all... there is nothing in any of those statements that would make me drop my drawers and spread my legs, and that is the bottom line.
Why do you think that changed?
You just opened the door for all her deflections again... this could last for hours....
I get what you're saying because I was married to the man who told me that food didn't taste as good when I didn't "make it with love" but the fact of the matter is that I served that guy dinner 6 nights out of 7 sometimes with love and sometimes just because people get hungry so I don't know why MsHD can't grow up and do the same.
WHAT?? I do not know much about your marriage Mojo but that certainly sounds P/A and just plain controlling to me! So he could tell when you cooked in anger??
But then again I assume he did not skip the meal because you didn't cook it with love, he just noticed it didn't taste as good. Sort of different for MsHD because in this case she just skips the meal because she is not hungry and not necessarily because HD has done or hasn't done something for her.
Not to be callous but isn't your STBX's stance on the food similar to what some of the guys say here, not only do they want to have sex; they want their wives to "desire" them also. That is where I get kind of confused in these discussions - they seem to jump back and forth between NEEDING sex AND needing to feel desired by their wives. While they can happen simultaneously, they don't always happen that way. So it feels confusing to me to sort through what their actual needs are. Personally, and I hate getting this personal, I can easily have sex if I am not in the mood and so far the guys I have been with in the past have been just fine with that. I could see how I would be less inclined to have sex if I was not in the mood if after having sex it became clear that they were disappointed in the fact that I did not desire them. Hey I am willing to have sex because I love you but don't guilt me because you expect me to always be "desirous" of you. But luckily for me the men in my life have actually been happy with the sex and weren't so preoccupied with a need to be wanted at EVERY moment.
Last edited by fearless; 03/20/0709:05 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
The NOPs may have initiated a schedule, and that may have fixed the initial problem with frequency... but NOP lost the anger, was kind, was consistent... and then he lost interest.
Are you trying to say that by the HD losing interest, the LD will pick up interest and fill the void? I can see that being a theoretical possibility in some marriages, but I don’t see it in mine nor in HD’s. That’s REALLY pushing my limit of credulity.
He removed every barrier Mrs. NOP had... she learned a new respect for him... in a slightly different way... and had to look to herself.
No, she did not HAVE to look at herself, she chose to, but she could also have decided that the whole matter finally died a natural death and she could go back to living her sexless existence.
Now, I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was the respect, in the end, that turned the ship.
I would agree with this, but respect for your partner as well as yourself.
If I were MrsHD, I would see nothing off balance at all... there is nothing in any of those statements that would make me drop my drawers and spread my legs, and that is the bottom line.
If we haven't scared HD off, that image is BOUND scare him off!!
Add the image of Cobra with his legs spread to the image of Cemar with the CB-2000 and HD in his french maid's outfit. This is clearly disturbing thread!!!
Seriously though,
You just opened the door for all her deflections again... this could last for hours....
I am confused. Is the issue just that HD wants MsHD to spread her legs for him once a week? if that's all he wants, maybe I am going the wrong direction and suggesting too much work. Here's where I "assumed" that he wants them to start having a more open and loving relationship which is demonstrated (it makes sense to me) by somewhat regular lovemaking. So that's why I am interested in getting MsHD to acknowledge that their sex life used to be different and getting her involved in the problem solving. I assume she would like a better relationship also (although sex may not be her issue) and wouldn't it be GREAT if the techniques they use to get there solved both problems?
Anyway, sure it's an opportunity for some deflection but again stick to the subject at hand.
HD: Why has our sex life changed?
MsHD: why do you need sex?
HD: I want to feel close to you like we used to. Why do you think that changed?
MSHD: YOu need to feel happy within yourself
HD: Yes I do. Why do you think our sex life changed?
...
And if she finally goes to answer it:
MsHD: (maybe)1)I just do not feel like I used to about sex, 2) with work and the kids I don't feel up to it 3)...
HD: Do you see "aforementioned issue" as a problem in your life?
Two possible answers (If she deflects, keep going back to the yes ot no answer format) MsHD: No
HD: If it is not a problem, then why would your sexual feelings toward me change? (Sorry but I have no idea where I would even go from there. But if you got that far, I am SURE that others could help more.
MsHD: Yes.
HD: WOuldn't it be great if we could solve this problem so we both could get more from the marriage?
Last edited by fearless; 03/20/0709:30 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Not to be callous but isn't your STBX's stance on the food similar to what some of the guys say here, not only do they want to have sex; they want their wives to "desire" them also.
My point exactly. That is why I can "understand" the LD woman's POV on sex to some extent. My H was the equivalent of CeMar when it comes to literally being fed. However, I do like to cook so my analogy does break down a bit. I was more like the reasonably high sex drive woman who was married to the guy who wanted it all the time and just the way he liked it (As opposed to the way I like it. Now that my H's moved out my D15 and I are eating stuff like Thai food and sushi and salads.). Clearly, I s*cked at drawing boundaries in my marriage but my point is that I didn't let the fact that his demands were unreasonable and frequently annoying prevent me from carrying out the responsibility of cooking dinner if I had agreed to take it on and I also didn't let it prevent me from still enjoying cooking most of the time. (Although I did go on strike for one period of about two weeks and serve nothing but frozen dinners. My own taste buds and sense of thrift made me back down.-LOL).
As I recall, MrsNOP used almost this exact analogy on one occasion. She said something like she accepted the responsibility of having sex even when she wasn't exactly in the mood for the same reason she always prepared meals for her daughter even if she wasn't in the mood to cook. I think it would be very easy to imagine a situation in which a couple married and the issue of cooking wasn't discussed beforehand. The H might be surprised that his W had no clue or interest in cooking. He might have the assumption that it would be at least a shared task but find that due to his unwillingness to press the issue initially and encourage his wife to develop some skills he ends up doing all the cooking. Five years and maybe two kids down the road it's going to be more difficult for him to put his foot down and say "This isn't fair. You need to learn how to cook.". Especially, if his wife's response when he nicely broaches the subject is along the lines of "Okay, I'll cook sometimes if you insist but plan on eating something burnt and nauseating.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------ The NOPs may have initiated a schedule, and that may have fixed the initial problem with frequency... but NOP lost the anger, was kind, was consistent... and then he lost interest.
He removed every barrier Mrs. NOP had... she learned a new respect for him... in a slightly different way... and had to look to herself.
Now, I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong... but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was the respect, in the end, that turned the ship. ------------------------------------------------------
Here is the abreviated sequence of events:
1) I lost the anger.
2) I told MrsNOP that I would no longer live in a sexless marriage.
3) MrsNOP and I started having "just sex".
4) Emotions ran high.
5) The situation escalated when I was not satisfied with the "just sex" I was getting and we started a schedule for even more "just sex".
6) Take all of the above and put it into an emotional blender and then spend many hours and days decoding the result.
7) Eventually we began to understand and appreciate each others perspectives and needs.
8) We now make love very often (daily, sometimes more). We still occasionally have "just sex", but the gnashing of teeth is gone.
I don't recall ever losing interest in MrsNOP outside of a short period of anger.
I was consistent, and kind, but our initial battle was fought over the entrenchment (stalemate) in our marriage. In item number 2 of the above list, I intimated divorce. That bomb cleared the trenches and we started fighting it out from there.
I am NOT trying to superimpose my relationship with MrsNOP over Hairdog's relationship. The only real similarity is the entrenchment.
My position here regarding Hairdog, and the premise of my advice, is that he must upset the stalemate before he can continue, and that logically, once the stalemate has been broken, there will arise relational issues that require immediate attention. Those issues won't be fun or easy to fix.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
OK, no more playing devil's advocate. Mrs HD can stand on her own!
I am confused. Is the issue just that HD wants MsHD to spread her legs for him once a week?
No, of course it is more than that... to him. But as Corri says, it is just a task for her, and the bottom line, after all the arguing and rationalization, is that she won't open her legs, and no amount of logic is going to make her do that.
