Yes, I'm almost certain that my wife would agree with that. She may have had more anxiety than I had just about living on her own, since she went from living with her parents to living with me, but it was a very happy, carefree time.
She was frequently the sexual initiator. She was very affectionate. I remember when I would visit her at her parents' house, she would sit next to me, always touching, and lots of hugs and kisses. And it would come time for me to go, she would kiss me like crazy, saying "Don't go, don't go." Yeah, it sounds gag-me-with-a-spoon now, but boy, do I miss those days.
This stayed largely the same for two years, until our daughter came alone. She slept very little, NEVER napped, and generally wore us both down. We never seem to have fully recovered from that.
I remember when I would visit her at her parents' house, she would sit next to me, always touching, and lots of hugs and kisses. And it would come time for me to go, she would kiss me like crazy, saying "Don't go, don't go."
Does she do the same sort of thing with your kids? I don't mean anything sexual, but the touching, hugging, kissing on them. All mothers do this, but does you wife seem to do it more than others?
I'll play. I was separated with a pending D when H and I met. My 55ish Mother was undergoing cancer treatment with a poor prognosis. Sex and intimacy were issues almost from the get/go in the R. I thought it was me having unreasonable expectations or traumas remaining from a 10 year M that was fraught with many, major difficulties (substance abuse on ex-H's part, psychiatric illness, emotional/verbal abuse, employment issues etc...). All aspects of the "partnership" part of my new R worked exceptionally well, smoothly. This was new for me. I got personal counseling all along since the beginning of the separation.
1 yr into the dating another traumatic event arose, H's best friend died. Six months into grieving the lack of sex became an absolute crisis as we were engaged and I couldn't imagine a sexless M. We got couples counseling. Things improved. We married.
I don't have a sexless M. I have a low sex M. I have a M in which there are sexual famines punctuated by periods of adequate sexual sustenance. Once in a great while there are feasts. H is always able to name some series of "mini or major traumas of family life as the reason" - to me, this isn't the reason it is merely a way to take the attention off the issue. I don't plan to leave.
I'm guessing here, Lust, cuz NOP hasn't revealed his hand yet, but I'm thinking his theory may be just the OPPOSITE. That the lack of any need to work thru difficulty together as a couple, early on, led to poor coping mechanisms later, when the SL issues reared their heads?
Hmmm...it's an interesting premise. But I'd say that it probably will be unsupported by data. If you look at the research/literature on M, there is a clear correlation between having "baggage" and having increase in D rates. In fact, that is particularly true for Re-M's that bring children into the family. People with a histroy of one M tend to D at about a 50% rate. But people with 2 or more M's, (especially if there are step-children involved) D at a much higher rate, some say about 75% D rate with re-M. Any time you have more complications and stressors in the M, the D rates go up. So I'm not so sure about the idea of being able to work through a trauma together making you stronger. Sometimes that is the case but statistically, it doesn't ring true. In fact, I believe I read that only about 10% of people who actually S, ever make the M work in the end. So I'm proud of H and I for beating the odds. Actually anyone who can hold a first M together nowadays is pretty cool. Keep working Choco. LFL
My relationship, like most of yours, started out with issues.
The data in our micro-sample speaks for itself (all exceptions dealing with such a small set noted).
As LFL pointed out, the stats are stacked against relational longevity where there is significant baggage at the start. The reason I was curious about "normal" vs "abnormal" relationship starts expressed as a ratio in this micro-sample is because of a couple that provide relationship advice via a syndicated newspaper/magazine column.
In the column, there is an implied opinion that relationships that start off with issues should be stopped post haste, and the persons involved should move on to new relationships. This thinking seems to be a current trend among "experts". The pros and cons of this approach are obvious and myriad. I will leave those considerations to the reader or for later discussion.
What disturbs me is that some "experts", including this couple, appear to be taking an unproven approach to its logical conclusion. That would be to end even a long term relationship affected by an issue indicative of early problems (some examples include infidelity), with little or no consideration as to any potential for recovery of the relationship. The motivating principle being that "true love" has no such issues.
Since people are "driven" into relationships for many reasons, love, convenience, money, loneliness, pregnancy, proximity, fear, and other reasons, it seems that limiting a relationship's legitimacy to only "true love" is a rather limited view of reality.
I am glad that this micro-study included at least one relationship with a positive start, that is having difficulty (Choc).
My opinion is and was that a relationship is what you make of it, with some obvious exceptions. I also agree that the lesser the issues at the onset of the relationship, the greater the chances are for long term success. I remain unconvinced that stopping a relationship early on when some issues first appear is always appropriate. I am highly skeptical that always ending an older relationship because a problem arises due to an early unresolved issue bears any merit.
I am completely convinced that dealing with issues in a relationship as soon as they arise is completely prudent. Proactive addressing of potential issues at the start of a relationship appears to be the best all around approach.
Conversely, long term continuation of a relationship where one or both spouses will not actively address issues does merit the discontinuation of the relationship.
I would like to hear your opinions.
Thanks, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
To launch right into my thoughts... if any one of you (and I say "you" because I'm already there) should find yourselves in a sitch where you are seeking a new relationship, at our ages (over 30, 40, 50, 60...) it's going to be impossible to find a person who doesn't bring some baggage. That might be in the form of health issues, former spouses (living or dead), children, grandchildren, financial successes and failures, death(s) of parent(s) and other close loved ones, and on and on. Maybe we could classify these as "normal" (the dreaded n-word) kinds of baggage due to just having been on the road awhile.
Then there are Other, less benign kinds of baggage... past spouse committed suicide, infidelity on one or both parts, jail/prison time, active alcoholism (in my R case) or even alcoholism/narcotic recovery (which is its own kind of baggage), children of new SO who have any of the above problems, parents/other relatives of the SO who have any of the above problems.
And then of course there are the known and unknown chronic and acute health issues. When I met my late H, his kidneys were already failing (creatinine of 2.4, for you medical types), but I didn't know what that meant.
When I started my round of internet dating, I did meet one guy I really liked. We sat at a La Madeleine and he told me he had MS. I thought I was going to throw up... but I didn't say anything. When we parted, I called my best friend on the phone and cried all the way back home. I might have proceeded into this R anyway (stupidly) except that he told me he was still in love with BOTH his ex-wives!
Three years ago my bf had chest pains while mowing the lawn and a week later had quad bypass surgery. Can you imagine how felt as I sat by yet ANOTHER bed in yet ANOTHER ICU?
I'm not sure what I'm exactly getting at... except that if you're alive, you have problems. The question is, what kind of problems can you live with?
I definitely agree with these comments of NOP's:
Quote:
My opinion is and was that a relationship is what you make of it, with some obvious exceptions. I also agree that the lesser the issues at the onset of the relationship, the greater the chances are for long term success. I remain unconvinced that stopping a relationship early on when some issues first appear is always appropriate. I am highly skeptical that always ending an older relationship because a problem arises due to an early unresolved issue bears any merit.
it's just that sometimes it's hard to know which issues go in which categories.
It's interesting how many of us on here got clear messages telegraphed at the very beginning of the R that sex would be a problem, but we went blithely ahead with the R. The book "He's Just Not That Into You" is very helpful in this regard at the beginning of the R. The author of "Mating in Captivity" also talks about the circumstances at the beginnings of R's.
I'm very interested in hearing others' comments, too.
In fact, I believe I read that only about 10% of people who actually S, ever make the M work in the end.
That is so interesting because Raven and one of my good friends were just talking about separations and lasting marriages. My counselor (he was a marriage counselor first and then my personal counselor) had suggested that I should have initiated a separation when my marriage hit the first big issue - xH's first EA - and xH did not respond to my concerns. His opinion was that I did all I could and xH did not see how serious his actions were in the context of my feelings and our marriage. I told him that I understood what he was saying but that I had no context at that time for separation being anything other leading to divorce.
Raven thinks it probably would have sent that strong message which would have been appropriate. He wishes that his xW would have done that without adding OM because without OM they probably would have made it.
My friend and I were talking about this because in the past 2 years I have learned a lot more about other marriages. 2 consultants I worked with last summer both went through separations in their marriages and have been married 15-30+ HAPPY years since then. One man was separated for 1 year after about 5 years of marriage. The other actually divorced and then remarried 3 years later. I was SHOCKED because these men were so head over heels with their wives I could not believe that they had had these rough patches. Then another woman I spoke with on this same consulting job told me that she and her husband went through a rough patch where they separated for 2 years. So I told my friend that I wondered if separation could actually save many more marriages if it wasn't seen as the end of the marriage.
Just some anecdotal information. By the way the guys I worked with were so interesting in their views of marriage. The one guy with the year separation spoke about reducing his alpha male personality within his marriage and learning to communicate with his wife in a more loving romantic way. Like writing a note to his wife during the day when he was away consulting and dropping it in the mail just to let her know he was thinking about her. He was so incredibly happy and in love with her 30+ years into their marriage and it was so touching to see. Inspiring, really.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I am completely convinced that dealing with issues in a relationship as soon as they arise is completely prudent. Proactive addressing of potential issues at the start of a relationship appears to be the best all around approach.
Conversely, long term continuation of a relationship where one or both spouses will not actively address issues does merit the discontinuation of the relationship.
I completely agree with this conclusion.
If I look back on my years dating my xH, the biggest caution light for me should have been when my 23 year old boyfriend could not admit to his Dad that he drank AND was willing to let his best friend take the blame for bringing beer onto their property.(I forget where I posted this entire story) The fact that he thought it was "funny" that I was so bothered by it should have been another clue. And your point of addressing this issue at the time would have had tremendous impact to the rest of our relationship.
My newest working theory on lasting good relationships is that even if person has baggage, FOO issues, personal issues, etc., if these issues are identified and recognized, EVEN IF THEY AREN'T YET RESOLVED, then the relationship has a good chance of working. It's the unknown, ignored and covered up issues that are the relationship killers.
Coincidently I bought the Dalai Lama's new book "How to see yourself as you really are" at the airport on Thursday. Interesting concepts that are written in context to global issues but, I think, they can easily be applied to relationship issues as well.
"Even if you seek to help someone out of concern, without insight you cannot be very clear about what benefit will come from your efforts. A combination is needed: a good human heart as well as a good human brain. With those working together we can achieve a lot" and
"What makes all the trouble in the world? Our own counterproductive emotions... If we tried to counteract each and everyone individually, we would find ourselves in an endless struggle...However all counterproductive emotions are based on ignorance of the true nature of things...The antidote to ignorance addresses all troubles. This is the extraordinary gift of insight"
What do you think???
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
