Hdog, I personally don't think that the sex issue should be taken off the agenda. With someone as LD as Mrs.HD, clearing up the other issues will not result in increased sexual desire within her. I would ask her to make some sort of compromise to you as a symbol of her commitment to the marriage, while letting her know you are working on yourself to improve things as well. If she's not willing to budge at all, then the NOP plan seems like the way to go.
Am I reading right...does she pick apart every little thing you do...or don't do? It seems like, and I know many people who do this, you tend to take the blame with no problem once some time has passed in order to keep things sane at home. Hence the lack of respect thing...
With someone as LD as Mrs.HD, clearing up the other issues will not result in increased sexual desire within her. I would ask her to make some sort of compromise to you as a symbol of her commitment to the marriage, while letting her know you are working on yourself to improve things as well. If she's not willing to budge at all, then the NOP plan seems like the way to go.
I agree with this. You cannot MAKE Mrs. HD feel secure. And besides, has she given any indication that her refusal to have sex with some predictable frequency has anything to do with your chores, $$ spending, etc? I see the connection between trust and intimacy in a global way, but as hd points out, even when all the t's are crossed and the i's dotted, she's too tired or whatever.
I think her email should be taken at face value. Asking her for clarification makes sense. That email. while civil, doesn't offer much hope. It says, 'right now there's too much going on but in the future when presumably there's less going on, I may not want to change either. If you can't live with that, let's part."
The honesty-- saying what's going on with hd and not hiding-- may or may not help HER change, but it will give hd a greater sense of HIS OWN integrity. Back when he started making The Statement about wanting sex once a week, that was what he wrote, "I'm feeling better about MYSELF."
I'm always preaching compassion... but after a certain point compassion becomes buying into the other person's excuses for why they are treating you like cr@p.
Kind of like Lou's BB chattering during sex. Okay, she doesn't enjoy it. But TALKING about nonsense at such a time... that's just plain rude. Mrs. HD has drawn a line in the sand, and whether she's doing it out of meanness or fear, the effect on HD is still the same.
The thing I was spouting back a few weeks was to go for a behavioral change. To ask her to commit to a change in her behavior REGARDLESS (or IRREGARDLESS ) of how she feels. HD can't change her feelings, but he can ask her to change her behavior out of love, which she claims to feel for him.
She has said she won't change to sex once a week. Ask for a compromise. How about once a month? HD, you can ask her to commit to having sex ONCE A YEAR on your birthday, and see what she says. I'm guessing she won't commit to anything.
If she won't agree to a minimal commitment of some kind... then why keep going down this cheeseless tunnel hoping for change? She has spoken. More attention-getting tactics are called for, i.e., the NOP plan.
First I want to tell you that I really empathize with your sitch. It is tough place to be and it seems the only way out is to wage all out war. But I learned that this is the impression that my wife wanted me and others to have. Her response to me when we got into a fight was always “Yeah, what are you going to do about it? Go ahead, do something!” So I did. She didn’t like it, she went into battle mode (which ended up being no big deal because she was already in battle mode). But it made her realize there are things I can do, and that I have the power and the legal right to do those things, and there is nothing she can do about it except leave. And she didn’t want to leave. She just thought she did. You’ve got to determine how much of your wife is bark and how much is bite.
How do you suggest I "directly address" these issues? Just a statement, like "I know you have problems with the way I have done x, y, and z. I see my part as a, b, and c." Resolved?
Basically, yes. That is how I did it. But back up a second. What is the basis for her saying you DIDN’T do something? What right is it of her to judge you in the first place? Even if you agreed to do certain chores, you have the right to not do them if you feel like it. She may not like it, but she has no right to tell you what you should do, how you should do it, when you should do it, or the quality of the work. You do it as you want and that is the end of it. If she doesn’t like it, then she can do it. The point is to break out of her control. The chore itself is NOT the issue. She needs an excuse to control you and is using the chore as an excuse. Don’t give it to her. Get the stuff done, but on your own terms. In fact, do it opposite to how she wants it done, but still get an acceptable result. Then YOU determine the standard to judge the work that is done, not her.
Help me understand. I guess I am having trouble figuring out how W is going to see anything as "resolved and settled."
No, and she never will. So don’t argue the point. Do what you think should be done to your reasonable standards and leave it at that. She will say she doesn’t like the way you did this or that. But you do it to your standards, then tell her you like it, that it is to your standards, and she is just arguing over preference. Tell her that. I don’t think “Oh” is good enough. I think you need to show a little more assertiveness than that.
She thinks like a bully. Bullies do not care one iota what the other person thinks or feels. You need to draw a distinction between her opinion and yours, and show her that what you feel is every bit as valid as what she feels (do not discount her feelings – that would be escalation). Don’t jump into the pit to argue over the chores, but do be more than willing to jump in and defend your right to do those chores as you see fit. I have even told my wife that she needs to respect me and my decisions in those areas, stop trying to micromanage me and BACK OFF. Those very words. Make HER think twice about challenging your decisions.
There is no way that I can, after that point, lead a "perfect" life. I will drop a ball occasionally. I may forget a meeting. I may blow off cleaning the house one Sunday because I was consumed with doing yard work instead. I may slip up and omit telling her something because I decide that I'd rather take a chance with her not finding out about it, than listening to her complain about something. And then, she will cite my current behavior, dredge up my similar behavior from the past, and we are (in her mind) back at square one.
So what if you slip up? That is your right. In fact, if you purposely choose to do a chore in the wrong way, that is your right. If you choose to skip mowing the yard one weekend because you have something else more important to do (like take a nap) that is YOUR decision, and your decisions are not open to question.
Do you see that your initial presumptions leave you open to criticism before you even do anything? You presume she has the right to treat you this way. So she does! Whose fault is that? Change your presumptions, make those new boundaries very clear to her, and then act as if the matter is closed. If she challenges the work, ignore her. If she challenges you right to make those decisions, be ready to defend yourself, vigorously (IMO).
I've been there before. I've thought to myself, "you know, Hairdog, you haven't farked up recently. You've done all your duties, done them well, haven't omitted or deceived. Haven't misspent. She seems happy." And then, if I initiate, there's always some other reason (back to the 'tired and stressed' or countless others).
Yep, and there always will be. The issue is not the chores. It is her fear.
So yeah, I'm willing to consider your plan, Cobra. I think, though, that it's more because I see my DD5 as being the one who suffers most if W and I split up, than because I have any expectation of anything resembling "success" with it.
This is not going to be easy for you HD. I am by nature more of a fighter than you. You will need something to shift you into battle mode. I think your daughter is the one thing that can do that. If you don’t go into battle mode now, you might end up having to do it anyway, at a later time. You need some controlled anger to take this on.
She has said fairly clearly what she is NOT willing to do, or not willing to agree to. What, if anything, is she willing to do/try/agree?
Do you really expect her to agree to anything? She won’t do so voluntarily. Part of the new marriage relationship will have to be built on a new level of trust. She needs to understand and feel what it means for someone to do something for her because they want to, not because she holds control over that person. She needs to understand that you have the power to decide whether you want to do your part, but that you will only do it if she in turn reciprocates. Tit-for-tat in order to build a pattern of mutual giving and slowly build comfort and trust. This is uncomfortable for her. She will have to deal with it. You need to hold her feet to the fire, give some support and encouragement, but let her experience how it feels on her own. Don’t rescue.
Some of you think I need to drop the sex issue.
I would drop expectations of sex within your mind, not hers. Your prospect of having sex anytime soon is zero to none IMO. Don’t frustrate yourself with false hope. But do keep the issue in front of your wife. Let this be another aspect of the overall relationship you want to have with her. Don’t hide it, keep it in the open. Just don’t expect anything right now.
I don't want to do that. I am at a place right now where I am very vulnerable to infidelity. And not because there are any immediate prospects on the scene. I'm just about to explode. Emotionally. Physically. I need to know how far she's willing to push this "unwillingness". Because, my compassion for her childhood, for her fears, for her sexual rejection, is not without limits. I think the crucible is here.
This is the tough part for you. Hold onto yourself the best you can. It is the part about Schnarch that I have problems with. You are in pain. Your wife is in pain. If you two can have that heart to heart and realize you both want the same thing, all she would have to do is tell you she understands you, she is working on it, and let you see signs of progress. You could do the same, in whatever LL she likes. That puts you two on the same team. That would ease a lot of your pain.
What makes this so hard is that she will not see her part of this. That is why I think appealing to her core hurts, going right past her defenses as if they were not there, will appeal to her. It will take some time for her to even know what you are talking about, but I think she will listen. IMO, this is about pulling back all the various deceptions and denials you both have. She won’t do it until she sees you do it. You don’t have her loss issues, so you should be better able to go first. The good thing is that she has shown signs of appreciation when you have done this before. So don’t be so afraid.
What is the basis for her saying you DIDN’T do something? What right is it of her to judge you in the first place?
The "x,y, and z" I was talking about was more about the financial mismanagement and the deceptions. These are things I have already acknowledged to her, but apparently need to be re-confessed. I see your point about not tolerating her judging my mode of doing something. I suppose the "didn't do something" is more about me agreeing to do something, and then not following through. That's one of my problems, and I work on it every day.
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But you do it to your standards, then tell her you like it, that it is to your standards, and she is just arguing over preference.
Back when we came up with the housecleaning arrangement, in the MC's office, the MC said to W, "and, if you find several things that you don't like about the way he cleaned that week, you should pick one, and only one, and tell him that." She used to be pretty good at following this guideline, but there are times when it seems like she just gets on a rant and starts listing. (Kind of like me, except I rant to you folks)
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Do you see that your initial presumptions leave you open to criticism before you even do anything? You presume she has the right to treat you this way. So she does! Whose fault is that? Change your presumptions, make those new boundaries very clear to her, and then act as if the matter is closed. If she challenges the work, ignore her. If she challenges you right to make those decisions, be ready to defend yourself, vigorously (IMO).
Yes, I have set up some wrong-headed presumptions. They likely started early in the relationship as well-intentioned efforts to "make her happy" or to become indispensable. That didn't work out very well.
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I would drop expectations of sex within your mind, not hers. Your prospect of having sex anytime soon is zero to none IMO. Don’t frustrate yourself with false hope.
I am harboring only the smallest ember of hope that there is sex (with my wife) in my future. Sure, an ember can set a whole forest on fire, but right now, it's deep inside of me, barely glowing, protected. I don't know what she thinks about it.
I don't know about the "tit for tat" (maybe quid pro quo is a better way to put it) making the cut here. I could see that just backfiring. In fact, my C has specifically counseled against any appearance of this, a la "give me sex and I'll do the AoS/QT/whatever; withhold sex and the house will be a dusty, quiet place..."
In fact, my C has specifically counseled against any appearance of this, a la "give me sex and I'll do the AoS/QT/whatever; withhold sex and the house will be a dusty, quiet place..."
I agree with this, and this is important: your desire to have a sexual relationship within your marriage is reasonable and does not need to be defended or negotiated for. It is reasonable to want this and ask for it before any "conditions" are met. The more you defend it or negotiate for it (not that you're doing this) the more you give credence to the pov that it is something unreasonable.
I don't know about the "tit for tat" (maybe quid pro quo is a better way to put it) making the cut here. I could see that just backfiring. In fact, my C has specifically counseled against any appearance of this, a la "give me sex and I'll do the AoS/QT/whatever; withhold sex and the house will be a dusty, quiet place..."
Let me clarify, because I wasn’t thinking about sex as part of the exchange. More like sharing daily chores, cooking, picking up the kids, maybe even talking about your true feelings? Sex is too vulnerable for her to include in any exchanges. Start with something of lower value to her for building up the foundation.
I think my wife’s motto of “Don’t mix sex with emotion” applies to your W too. As bogus as it is, that is how she thinks. So I am trying to change the underlying basis for why she feels she needs to have such a philosophy. Attacking that philosophy head-on is futile.
Cobra: Okay, I'm a bit confused. In my post this morning I laid out what I was going to put in my reply email to her,
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She has said fairly clearly what she is NOT willing to do, or not willing to agree to. What, if anything, is she willing to do/try/agree?
You quoted that, then said,
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Do you really expect her to agree to anything? She won’t do so voluntarily. Part of the new marriage relationship will have to be built on a new level of trust. She needs to understand and feel what it means for someone to do something for her because they want to, not because she holds control over that person. She needs to understand that you have the power to decide whether you want to do your part, but that you will only do it if she in turn reciprocates. Tit-for-tat in order to build a pattern of mutual giving and slowly build comfort and trust. This is uncomfortable for her. She will have to deal with it. You need to hold her feet to the fire, give some support and encouragement, but let her experience how it feels on her own. Don’t rescue.
That's why I thought you were suggesting a quid pro quo including sex. What's the quid pro quo?
What I had in mind was to do a quid pro quo for something as simple as house chores. She seems to have a need to control everything, so I was trying to think of a way to show her that letting go of that control will not mean the end of the world. Life will go on and you will do your part of helping around the house because you want to and you care for her, not because she threatens and intimidates you.
But the means she will have to get comfortable with the idea of accept those “gifts” from you too. If she “forces” you to do something, she does not need to worry about how you feel about it. Emotion is not involved at all. But if you do it out of compassion and love, then she has to face the vulnerability of accept those gifts and allow herself to feel. That might be scary for her, especially if part of the quid pro quo concerns sex.
So set of a training “pattern” of exchanging gifts, chores, some kind of LL item, using a less emotional “thing.” Removing the vulnerability that comes from swapping for sex could actually be a more valuable lesson for her. If she has trouble accepting a simple act of service which is not connected to sex at all, how is she going to put the focus on you? She might have to take a look at herself.
Focusing on sex provides a convenient shield for her. All she has to do is use the fall-back feminist defense that men are all pigs for wanting sex, and that whole quid pro quo is not even worthy of consideration. So take sex out of the equation and see whether she can still deal with the quid pro quo. I am betting she can’t, which is what you want.
) of how she feels. HD can't change her feelings, but he can ask her to change her behavior out of love, which she claims to feel for him.