Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Discussion on MrsCAC4 thread - Making assumptions

HD:

Yeah... it would definitely raise my antenna... backed up with all the other stuff you are doing... especially if you kept stating your wants/needs... and going about your happy-go-lucky self in the interim.

Corri

Except, instead of stopping, why not:
You can?! Oh...I am SO relieved!

And *then* stop. Exactly.

I'm mostly just saying that if your spouse admits this is a problem for you, that's significant. As opposed to Mrs.HD's first hypothetical answer which says that it's not really a problem, just a result of bad societal programming.

And of course my controlling, manipulative side wants the LD Corri to come back later and complain about him leaving his socks on the floor in the bathroom so he can say, "Well... I can see how it's a problem for you."

Or in the case of Mrs.HD's first response, I could gin up a Tracy-logic laden explanation about how sockless bathroom floors are really an outmoded societal convention. No wonder my marriage was such a struggle...

But seriously...if your spouse acknowledges a problem for you and you just leave it at that... seems useful.

Chrome,

Thanks and gotcha, which is why I said I can see how this question is pointless. Either the person gets how this is a problem, or they don't. Better to act in ways to create/increase desire, or recognize how your SO is masking their desire.

I think Corri’s point is that YOU should rephrase your statement to “Given that we are married, if you have no sexual desire for me, can you see how that is a problem for ME?"

This makes the statement accountable to you, not the two of you. All she has to agree to is that you see this as a problem, regardless of whether she believes it is a problem or not. The question removes debate over whether a problem exists and puts how YOU FEEL at the center of discussion, which is really what this is all about, right?

When you ask Hairdog:

I hope I do not offend. But did your marriage vows say something along the lines of "love, honor, cherish?" If so, have you ever asked your W what those words mean? Or if she is the sole person who gets to decide how to love, honor, and cherish you, no matter if you don't feel loved, honored, and cherished?

You are really taking the same position as your above quote – opening to debate whether the issue of vows is relevant or not. That is not the core problem. Your real concern is how you feel, regardless of whether it is marriage vows or something else. Saying that you fell hurt because she does not honor your marriage vows makes you vulnerable, but because those are your feelings, the statement is not open for debate. Do you see this subtle but important difference?

Hairdog,

Heya Chrome. It truly doesn't matter what our vows said. I've argued vows with her before. I end up eating my own tail. Logic has no place here. I've been getting much more satisfactory results from the BF/NOP approach of just being the best Hairdog I can be, standing in her way, getting and giving the hugs/kisses I want, and, when that doesn't work, shrugging it off with a funny comment a la, "your loss, babe."

Why are you getting results? I think it follows from what I said to Chrome. You are not putting up for debate the logic of what you want, just that you want it because that is how you feel. She cannot argue with that because her whole rationalize view of men, women and the world is based on the exact same principle – it is so because that is how she feels. For her to invalidate your feelings means she is open for you to invalidate her world. She won’t go there. I think you need to exploit this.

Just a quick note. After 15+ years of sex-starvation, I think I more than established that when it came to sex, "Nop was not the boss of me."

The every day was a solution we both agreed to and not something that I was controlled or coerced into. I agree that it's not for everyone. We work together and we're empty nesters, so it's easily attainable for us.

Just sayin'

MrsNOP -

This thread has been taking some interesting twists and turns. I'll jump back in here now I've had a chance to catch back up.


Fearless said:
Shame is one of my xH's issues and his parent's definitely did not shame him. This is why it is so hard for him to feel badly. The feeling of doing something "wrong" quickly turns into shame which is a horrible emotion. No wonder he deflected on me, huh?
This is exactly the point I was making about my s7, he is hardwired to feel shame more intensly than average (as is H). Thanks for the comments Cobra about my interactions with him. He knows I love him and hate the behaviour (when it's bad). I tell him I love him plenty and I also validate the good stuff he does. When he is feeling that intense shame and hates me for making him feel that way, what I am trying to do is get him to come through the other side of that. To feel it, own it, and bounce back. And to learn that that is possible and that, although the shame is intense and painful, it is possible to survive it. I also think he is at a crucial age to learn these lessons. On Cobra's point about face-saving - I intentionally leave him to stew on his own for a time (say 10 mins) so he does have a place to hide for a while - I ask him to talk to God about it which is a way of working through the issue in private - rather than make him apologise I get him to think of something he can do to make up for it. I prefer this method because I think it makes the person feel better than just apologising. This is not something that goes on week in week out in our house, just something that comes up now and again. The times it has worked successfully by the end of it he and I have a big cuddle so I know that he is feeling comforted and comfortable again.

Interestingly an almost opposite interaction happened when my H was dealing with a piece of bad behaviour from him because H (being someone who feels shame to the same intensity) tried to protect him from his own feelings, and S7 ended up feeling angry and in a bad mood for another hour or so EVEN THOUGH HE HAD "WON".

Cobra, I am also interested in what you say about the tension in the house. I am sure he does feel it and it will affect him I've no doubt.



Fearless:
Nop said
Obviously, your husband really impacted your self esteem during your marriage. I think that is very true and I thought it as I was reading through before I got to Nop's comment. Your xH has most likely "trained" you into couching everything in conciliatory terms because your more natural straight talking would have felt too shaming for him and he would have made that your fault.


Fearless said:

OOOOOH but what about this. What if xH was actually TAKING my control of MYSELF away from me? WHAT IF I was used to being able to state my feelings and feeling that sense of control over my feelings and my xH "robbed" me of that? Not that I needed validation of the feeling but remember he didn't passively "withhold" validation which would have still left me with the feeling. NO he told me that I SHOULD NOT feel that way. This was foreign and confusing for me as someone used to owning her feelings.


Exactly. There is a level of jealousy there. You are in control of yourself and he has been envious of that, he has spitefully done everything he can to tear you down and rob you of it. Why should you have that if he can't. Dragging you down to his level. Again it is that shame, your superiority in managing your feelings makes him feel inferior and thus ashamed. So he deflects the pain on to you again.

This isn't everything I would have liked to comment on on this thread, just a few nuggets... but I've got a life to lead

Fran

Fearless:

Just another comment. I have to revise my statement that I thought you were looking for 'validation.' As I think about my own sitch, I never really needed to be 'validated,' (for like you, I KNEW what I was feeling and felt very comfortable with knowing myself)... what I was seeking was 'acknowledgement.' And I also felt pretty strongly about not having my feelings 'dismissed,' or 'invalidated,' simply because he could not necessarily relate or understand.

Corri

... what I was seeking was 'acknowledgement.' And I also felt pretty strongly about not having my feelings 'dismissed,' or 'invalidated,' simply because he could not necessarily relate or understand.

I can relate to this. In my limited experience with emotional avoiders I've noted that they seem uncomfortable with feelings, particularly when such feelings are expressed in emotional ways such as anger, sadness (crying), and so forth. Not only do they not understand the feelings; they're unnerved by them. They just want the (other person's) feelings to go away.

Mrs. Cac:



Absolutely. And that is their problem. It is an intimacy avoider... a person not knowing 'how' to deal with another.

You don't have to understand. Sometimes... you just have to say... "I don't know what to say... how about a hug?"

Corri

Yup. That definitely would work for me.

First, I just wanted to apologize for my rant yesterday and I certainly did not mean to dismiss any of the work you, as Mrs Nop, have done in your M. While Nop certainly is a strong person, I think you would need to be equally strong to be able to address the M issues.
Plus, I may be subconsciously envious that you have reached a solution when most of us are still struggling along.
I am more hopeful than ever today though so thanks for all the great feedback on the board.