Quoting Heather from her last thread: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Things are going ok. Not great, not even good exactly, but ok.
I still have a lot of apprehension about H's view of our life together and what it means to him.....he still seems to find it acceptable to tell me what I 'can' and 'can't' do which is very troublesome to me and I need to address it. Here's yesterday's example-I found a church that I MIGHT like to visit. It's called a Unitarian church and it sounds like a place I might like. I sent him a link to the website and he happened to call shortly after so I told him I sent the link. He was ADAMANTLY against going. I said, well I'd like you to go with me, but I can't make you. I might like to go myself then though, I'll have to see. He said 'I'm just sitting here thinking, it's more time away from the family, but I'm starting to change my thoughts on that too so...'. I said, 'well, like I said, I can't make you come with me, but if I get involved and it's something I enjoy, there's no reason the kids can't come with me'. He said 'yes there is. There's a huge reason-I am completely against it'. He argued against church, organized religion and I tried to explain that I share most of his views, but this church sounded different and that was why I sent him the link. He kept asking questions about why, what's the point, etc. I happened to still have the website open so I answered each of his rhetorical questions with an answer from the website, which he mostly argued with as well. At one point he asked me if this is something my 'ideal spouse' would do and I didn't know if he was being sarcastic, but it didn't sound like it so I said 'no, not necessarily. But my ideal spouse would probably say something along the lines of, if it's important to you to give it a try then go ahead and if you find it to be something you enjoy, feel free to take the kids, you are their mother'. He just said "Well..." and that was all. At some point, he said that church/religion is something we're supposed to co-parent on and I said 'I know, that's why I asked you to come with me'. (Sidenote-convenient how he mentions coparenting when it suits him....I'd like to coparent on the bedtime issue and in some other areas as well and I've been trying for years to no avail). I can't remember what prompted me to say this, but I said 'I can't imagine you asking me to attend or do something with you or for you and me saying straight up no, I just don't understand that'. He jumped all over that statement saying that I was attacking him by saying 'I would never do this or that to you...'. I told him I didn't mean to attack him, but that for me, the statement is true. I wouldn't say no. He said so if I asked you to...I can't even remember the example he used...do xyz, then you would do it?' I said 'If you wanted me to, yes, I'd at least try it'. He said, 'well that's the thing, I would never ask that of you.' I said 'H, we've been together for 15 years and you've never asked anything of me? Is that the kind of R we want, one in which we never ask anything of one another?' He said 'I'm just not like that, I don't ask anything of you'. He said "I don't know, maybe it's just my mood right now, maybe I'll feel differently later, but..." I said "Ok, maybe we can try to talk about it again later". And that was it.
So there you have it. The old dynamics are just chomping at the bit to return. I found two things promising. One was that he asked what my ideal spouse would do, I was surprised he cared enough to ask. The second positive thing was that he left the door open to change his mind. I did not act pissy last night which I think surprised him. He expected me to mad, even asked me if I was mad in the form of 'Uh-oh, the look on your face is not good, what'd I do?' The look on my face was fine, he was just anticipating the worst. I just said 'Is there an odd look on my face...I don't know, I feel fine'. And we went about our night.
But this has GOT to be addressed. We need to have another discussion this weekend and I could sure use some assistance with putting my thoughts together. I get so overwhelmed by his reactions to things that I don't even know where to start! ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Heather.
Forget about the new church for now. He is just looking for a reason to argue and discount your actions and attitude. Don't feed him the opportunity. You have him on the run, and on the defensive. This is an uncomfortable place for him. Expect him to continue power plays. Just be non-reactive.
I like the "ideal spouse" reply, good job.
Now to his reactions. Expect them to get stronger and more challenging. Keep responding with your "new relationship plan". The more aggressive he becomes, the more cheerful you become, while you ignore his behavior - for now.
After a couple weeks of giving him time to get used to the new you, then it will be time to call him up to the plate and ask him if he is going to play or not.
The new Heather that is non-reactive to his button pushing needs to become a real part of you. Your relationship needs it now. You will need it in a new relationship, even if it is not with your husband.
You are going to have to prove that the changes in you are real, and you will have to do that via demonstration. Talking is great, but don't give away much of the plan. You want him to buy into it before you completely tell him what it is.
All of this may seem unfair to you, but it really isn't. It addresses issues in your current relationship, and preps you for a new one, regardless of your husbands actions.
Start working on improving your relationship with your children apart from your husband.
Can you describe your current relationship with your kids to me?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Hi Nops, thanks for starting another thread for me, I didn't realize my other one was locked.
Forget about the new church for now.
Yeah, that seems to be the consensus.
After a couple weeks of giving him time to get used to the new you, then it will be time to call him up to the plate and ask him if he is going to play or not.
How do I address the D papers at this point? He only has until March 8 to respond he said. I told him we'd talk about it this weekend. So, the problem is that I don't really have another couple of weeks.
Can you describe your current relationship with your kids to me?
I don't know how else to describe it except to say that if given the choice, they will show their preference for Daddy in just about everything. Who's going to carry them, read to them first at night, whatever, it's Daddy 99% of the time. D4 usued to prefer me, but that seems to have changed.
H knows this and it gives him a lot of power depending on whether or not we are getting along. He knows he has the power to almost entirely exclude me if he wants to, and under the circumstances of the recent past, he has done that often. Knowing he has that power and his willingness to use it was what prompted me to file for primary custody of the kids so that I would be able to make decisions where they were concerned.
When it comes to going places or doing things, it usually feels like I'm just there for the ride. It feels like he's always in control. The bedtime issue has been a great example from him that I do not have the same authority as him to make decisions. I want S6 in bed BY 9:30 ready to sleep, no more getting up. But H has actually physically prevented me from implementing that. I don't know what to do.
Plus, when he is more affectionate with them than he is with me....I just feel so lonely, and in the past I've constantly wondered why the heck I am even here.
On a positive note, H has done some really great things where the kids are concerned, some things that I've requested in the past.
The other night, S6 got an attitude in front of H's family. S6 pushed my hands away when I tried to touch him and H scolded him and asked him to apologize to me. That's huge because I've tried to tell H in the past that when teaching our children respect for each of us, it is far more effective for the other parent to step in and speak up than it is for the parent whose being disrespected to try to teach that lesson. This is the first time that I recall, where H did what I asked...it's possible he's done it before, but if so, it's been so long I don't remember. I've been basically on my own the past couple years with parenting where H would stay silent when S6 was rude or disrespectful or even just unintentionally hurtful. So, his speaking up was a huge change.
Also, we took a nap yesterday as a family and when we woke up H whispered in the kids ears that they should all 'get mommy' on the count of three. That was cute and I appreciated the gesture.
In closing, I feel like H has the power to either add to or detract from my R with my kids. Over the past few years, he's purposely chosen to detract and it's been really, really hurtful. Sometimes, I feel like the easiest way to stay with H is just to sort of give up, give in. There is greatest harmony between us when I do this. I often feel like my spirit has been broken. Maybe I'm depressed? I don't know. I'm struggling to find my role in this family.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Quote: ------------------------------------------------- How do I address the D papers at this point? He only has until March 8 to respond he said. I told him we'd talk about it this weekend. So, the problem is that I don't really have another couple of weeks -------------------------------------------------
Then you will have to address the issues before the 8th.
"Hubby, I have done my best to deal with the residual issues of my affair. In order for us to continue, I need at least a minimum commitment to the relationship from you. First, I need to know if you are going to work with me on building a new relationship. Secondly, I need to know if you intend to start sharing our marital bed with me again. Thirdly, I need to know if you intend to share parenting with me as an equal partner."
If the answers are positive, then postpone the divorce. Don't stop it just yet. Let the proof be in the pudding. You have now proven that you are serious about the relationship (the truck has been dealt with, right?). It is his turn to prove his seriousness. Do keep in mind that he already considers himself as having proven his seriousness. Regardless, he will need to prove that he is ready to commit to working out the issues.
Both of you need to come to an agreement that the old relationship is dead, and that the way to proceed forward is to recognize that the only way to repair your relationship, is to build a new one based on mutual effort and trust. You can't assess blame in a relationship, especially a failed one. It is a fruitless effort. Don't waste your time trying.
It is very important that you and hubby present a unified front to your children. The favorites and power plays have to stop immediately. If that means that you put yourself directly into any normally familial interactions with your children (bed time, meal time, evening family time, outings, etc), then you do that regardless of protestations or anger from your hubby. You have to start doing this regardless of the current status of, or the potential outcome of the marriage. Your children need both parents if possible. If that is not possible, then they need healthy relationships with both parents.
Let me know what you think.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Nop is giving you terrific advice. I'm sorry that now is not the time to investigate spiritual options. I was a member of the Unitarian Church in several places I lived. I enjoyed it greatly and it is very nice for folks who are a little church leery. Unitarians are inclusive of many different ideas. Maybe it is something that will be doable in the future.
It does seem as if Nops list of questions is pretty basic if you are to decide what to do about the D. I hope your H gives answers you can work with.
Try not to take your children's preferences too personally. At different stages it is natural for them to have a preference for one parent over the other. It comes and goes. The tension in your household will tend to extend those stages. It is not a reflection of your parenting ability.
Then you will have to address the issues before the 8th.
We were going to talk this past weekend, but did not have time. Then he tells me this morning that he has a L appt today. I said 'yeah, I guess we didn't have time to talk this weekend did we?' He said 'no and it's going to cost like $400.' I said 'Maybe you can postpone until we've had a chance to talk?' He said 'No, because I have to respond by the 8th.' So, I guess he saw his L today. I'll try to initiate a discussion tonight.
"Hubby, I have done my best to deal with the residual issues of my affair. In order for us to continue, I need at least a minimum commitment to the relationship from you. First, I need to know if you are going to work with me on building a new relationship. Secondly, I need to know if you intend to start sharing our marital bed with me again. Thirdly, I need to know if you intend to share parenting with me as an equal partner."
I like this.
If the answers are positive, then postpone the divorce. Don't stop it just yet. Let the proof be in the pudding.
Can a year be considered a 'postponement', lol?
Do keep in mind that he already considers himself as having proven his seriousness.
Your point here is not to argue with him about whether or not he's proven his seriousness. Just state and restate what I need to hear?
Regardless, he will need to prove that he is ready to commit to working out the issues.
His behavior lately has spoken volumes and I need to address how much I appreciate the actions he's taken. I think I have to be careful not to address them as 'changes' because I don't want him to feel like he's being controlled by me, giving me what I want. I just want to appreciate his actions for what they were-respectful, thoughtful and kind.
There has been lots of good, lots. Way more good than bad. I'm very optimistic, even about my role in the family. We had a good conversation today about him having a 'boys' night out with S6. He offered to let me take S6. That's a huge step in the right direction, as one of my points has always been that if it is one-on-one time that S6 needs, why should it matter so much which parent takes him? For the first time, it appears that he is considering my point-of-view. And I plan to accept that offer
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I'm sorry that now is not the time to investigate spiritual options.
That's ok. I can't let going to a church or not going to a church interfere with my plan to investigate spriritual options. I can read, meditate, pray from home. It will be ok.
It does seem as if Nops list of questions is pretty basic if you are to decide what to do about the D. I hope your H gives answers you can work with.
Karen, so do I. I know better than to expect to hear all of what I want to hear, the way I want to hear it. I will be open to his way of giving and yet try to be wary of him taking me off track.
Try not to take your children's preferences too personally.
Sigh. I know. When the balance of 'power' shifts back so that things are more equal, it seems I'm better able to see their preferences for what they are, just a temporary preference. Even if it is a long-term preference, it doesn't mean they don't love me. I try to think of my R with my own parents. I was never as close to my Dad as I was to my Mom, but I still love my Dad just as much. I know I just need to let go a little. But they're my babies
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Quote: ------------------------------------------------ I'll try to initiate a discussion tonight. ------------------------------------------------
Great!
Quote: ------------------------------------------------ Can a year be considered a 'postponement', lol? ------------------------------------------------
The time period is entirely up to you. A year could be an eternity, or it could be a flash in the pan. It depends on the pace of the progress. I would leave the postponement open ended. If in a few months it becomes apparent that your relationship is stuck back into the old mold, and you know in your heart that you have tried everything short of explosives to move it off center, then it may be time to call it quits.
Quote: ----------------------------------------------------------- Your point here is not to argue with him about whether or not he's proven his seriousness. Just state and restate what I need to hear? -----------------------------------------------------------
Yes.
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------ His behavior lately has spoken volumes... ------------------------------------------------------------
Good. I am glad that he is staying outside of his comfort zone. That is an uncomfortable place for both of you in the relationship, but it is a very good place to be.
Please keep me posted.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I am glad that he is staying outside of his comfort zone. That is an uncomfortable place for both of you in the relationship, but it is a very good place to be.
Tonight isn't shaping up to be a very good evening. H had an appt with his L today and he came home, treating me very much like old days. He said it was not a good feeling to be in the L's office today. I asked him if it was anything in particular and he said no. He's spending time with the kids right now and both kids left the bedroom for a minute, so I went down and asked if he was alright. He said being in the L's office brought it all back and that maybe he just needs some time, he doesn't know. I said "I'm trying to give you space, I just wanted to make sure you're ok, I feel bad that you're upset". So, I guess I'll just give him his space for the rest of the night and be available later if he wants to talk, but I don't think I'll push for a conversation tonight.
It was a heartbreak to have this happen. I'm hoping that it's short lived. Please keep us in your thoughts, things were going so well....
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
He had a reality check. The trip to the lawyer reminded him of how serious things really are.
Don't wait too long to talk to him. Do be as kind as you can be to him, not doting or desperate, but kind.
Please keep us posted.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Things seemed to be ok later that night. We talked a little....I'm feeling overwhelmed so it's hard for me to lay out what was said right now, but it was a good conversation and I hugged him before I went to bed-then he came into my room and kissed me on the forehead hours later before he went to bed.
Yesterday, he was more in his shell than he has been. Not initiating any affection and not being all that responsive to my affection. S6 fell asleep yesterday when they got home and he was still sleeping when I got home. I woke him up and we all went out to dinner, we had a nice time. On the way home from dinner S6 fell asleep again. We got home at about 8:45. We came in, I got D4 ready for bed and asked S6 to finish his milk, at which point H says 'He has time'. I said 'I'd like to get him bedtime started early tonight.' He said 'That's nice'. I said 'H, it's obvious he's tired' and he just rolled eyes and said pfft or something like that. I said "H, he fell asleep twice today, I think it's apparent that he's tired". H said "Well actually, since he took a nap, he should get to stay up later". S6 said 'Yeah, and it was a long nap too'.
I went for a walk and after S6 was tucked in H came and sat next to me on the couch. I said 'Well, that sucked.' He asked what sucked. I said, 'what just happened'. We talked about it-it wasn't a good conversation, neither of us got out of hand exactly, but there was not the same level of respect that has been present in our more recent conversations. He just kept saying all the same old stuff, that he's given and given on S6's bedtime, at which point I asked 'If it wasn't for me, what time would you put S6 in bed?' He said he didn't know. He said the bedtime routine used to be a lot longer and that he didn't really think about the time, he just put S6 to bed after they finished up what they were doing. I said 'That would be nice, wouldn't it? If times didn't matter, if responsiblilities didn't warrant a schedule? It's our job to instill good habits and a sense of responsiblility in our kids.' He said 'Going to be early is not teaching responsiblity.' I said 'Yes it is, it's teaching that sleep is important for our bodies to function and it's teaching that tomorrow's activities are important.' He said 'I would think it would be more responsible to finish up what you're doing and make sure things are put away, etc'. Trying to state my opinions when H disagrees with me is fruitless because all it turns into is an argument, he uses ridiculous (IMO) logic to justify the things he says and does. It's hard for me to believe he can say some of the stuff he says and manage to say it with a straight face no less. He's convinced that he's given and given on the bedtime issue and that it's just 'not good enough' for me. He mentioned again last night that I treat D4 differently and that he doesn't think I know how to compromise. The conversation didn't end very well, but H did say goodnight and he came back out to kiss my forehead before he went to sleep.
So where does that leave me? Where is this new R that I wanted? H managed to be nice to me for about a week before he used the L appt as an excuse to pull away again, all the while blaming me for my lack of commitment. I was not very friendly to H this morning, I managed to say goodbye but that was all I could muster. This is not good.
It seems like we are right back where we started. At least for a while, I saw some genuine affection from H but I guess he was only able to keep it up for a week. WTH?
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
