Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Discussion on MrsCAC4 thread - Making assumptions

Fearless:

Somewhere in Cobra's last diatribe... you will see him 'backing off.' As he is also making his point.

Now. If you want to push him into a corner... have at it.

Otherwise, you could give him a cyber hug. And first understand him. For the point, here, is not to be 'right.' But to be heard.

He has valid points. As do you.

We all do.

Funny how that works.

Corri

And first understand him. For the point, here, is not to be 'right.' But to be heard.



Not necesarily, Corri. Depends on who you are as a person.
For example, if you were ...say,

And in my case I will keep pressuring, resisting, debating, etc. to make you prove your point of which I know you are wrong. And I know very well that this is frustrating for someone trying to, in my mind, bully their way. And typically they will just keep pushing even when their lack of knowledge is exposed because they know no other way. TO admit a mistake is defeat in their book so on that level I can sympathize with the agony they must feel, but do I need to back down from being right just to appease their weakness?


then probably not.


DeRaven, Thanks for informing us that you are Fearless' man.
I was getting ready to P1ss a big circle around her, untill I saw she was 5'2" and of course, that she was ...is yours.


Enjoy, thats a big handful in a little package.





hey wait,


I could have swore that you were just talking to your x about the possibilities of getting back together at a family dinner though.... so confused ...does that mean she is still up for grabs?

must be sleep deprived and not remembering correctly...

Yeah, some of us are just feeling too stupid to follow the bouncing ball. Must be lack of sex fog brain coming on.

First, the whole assumption issue, I think there are a few different overlapping issues here. I agree with Lil that there may be a few different assumptions going on here. I thought I stated this clearly before that assumptions are part of human behavior and we are FORCED to make assumptions in most cases and need to make assumptions too (we cannot sit around and wait until all facts are on the table either and we have to consider that some facts may not be true as in a person's declarations. However I think in a relationship if you cannot trust a person to be open to you there is already a bigger problem than the assumption issue although that can complicate it which is my point). My main point was not to MISTAKE an assumption as fact. Cobra probably does a good job with assumptions in many cases but I believe his bigger problem can be the few times that he is wrong, he is not aware or is unwilling to see he is wrong because he is so entrenched in his belief of the assumption as fact.

Second, I have not known exactly how to respond to Corri and others because I have "assumed" that Cobra and I were conversing just fine about the subject at hand. As I said I knew things were narrowing toward me and my issues but I accepted that risk by throwing out personal examples. I also understood that in this case, like many others in life, Cobra HAD to make assumptions because he knew nothing of my story and background. Again the real discussion point I tried to start earlier was how ENTRENCHED and absolute CObra can come across with his assumptions in some cases and how, at least in the story of the woman and her boyfriend, he pulled 3 specific details out of a paragraph I wrote that a) I had not written anything about and b) were not true to the story. I just thought it was interesting.

And to let everyone know again I do not take this personally. Of course raven jumped in to the fray. He was not so much trying to protect me, nothing wrong with that even if I can take care of myself ;). He just felt he had some FACTS that would clarify things about me.

My problem has been trying to figure out exactly what that dysfunction is.

And as far as my real problem... I started writing about ONE of the issues that I have definitely identified with counseling (and honestly I have been aware of it but did not understand the depth of it. yeah like every other dysfunction. I know I know) and have started to try to work through it. I'll try to post it later today or tomorrow. Then Cobra and decide whether it is right or wrong I've wasted a lot of time and money in therapy is it's wrong!


I am having trouble understanding exactly why you object so strongly to assumptions.

I hope I stated it clearly in the first paragraph but I am going to stop to repeat. I have an issue when assumptions are so entrenched that someone, not Cobra specifically but people in general, cannot recognize facts which are contrary to the assumption. I do recognize that assumptions are essential to living in this world.

I know you are adamant that you do not control.

Actually I did not think I was adamant at all unless you thought I was sarcastic when I said I would look into this issue. I have already started asking friends about this and this will be a topic I look into more deeply. (and I will let my friends and family know that YOU are to blame for this latest case of introspection!) In fact here is an early theory - I do not try to control others at all however I do try to control my reactions to them, my feelings about them and my interactions with them. So Self Control is a big desire for me.

But the fact that you hoped for something from your H, a man you knew (consciously or unconsciously) was lost in his need to please others, means to me that you may have been expecting a quid pro quo.

Possible but I do not think so. First, I am not a quid pro quo type of personality. I can give a long list of examples but right now I'll just "assume" you can believe me on this one. Second xH was not really lost in a need to please others but had a need to not feel pain from displeasing others. An important difference in the issues he is working through. I also thought your comments to Hap were useful. I planned to write her more in depth about it although I completely agree with your idea about to yours about then make a clear distinction between that love and his behavior. xH never learned that distinction.

The actual incident itself is not important. What seems to tick you off is that he would not make himself vulnerable to your attempts to understand and sooth him and then he would not acknowledge your anger at being blocked out. He even went so far as to deny he was the source of your anger and that you actually brought it on yourself. Did I get that right?

Actually it was the "incident" itself for me. I really just saw this at it's core as a straightforward issue. I admit I was angry especially early on when we were dating and I was not as aware of his issues. I saw him as being purposely disrespectful and as trying to leave me "high and dry" on the weekends - him with his plans with friends and me at home alone because it was too late to make plans. yeah I eventually got more sympathetic when I realized it was not about ME. And somehow I have always had the ability to communicate (usually) with the "I feel" statements rather than the "you make me feel". Well probably it has a lot to do with my mom. She was tough that way. We always had to take responsibility for our actions regardless of what a sibling did or friends at school did. We were forced to own our mistakes. Yet to your point while we could be punished terribly for our mistakes we always had the knowledge that our parents loved us completely.

The following quote is from my original thread so the writing and tone are different but I am too lazy to rewrite the story even though I desperately want to edit this passage!!!


Fearless, do you think you did everything you could in your marriage to help him on that journey? Isn't this what you want to know?

Of course. By now I am sure you have guessed that I have a strong loyalty personality and a strong desire to DO THE RIGHT THING at all costs. (Which is why Raven can still broach the subject of reconciliation with remarried xW. They have children and of course the right thing would be for those great kids to have 2 parents under the same roof)

So far xH and counselor do not believe I could have done anything different. Not in any way that I am perfect!!! Actually the counselor commented that the only thing he would have recommended was that 5 years into our marriage when xH began an EA with a woman at work, I should have put my foot down and pushed for a separation to show how seriously wrong his actions were since he would not listen to me. And it "probably" would have forced us into counseling unless xH would have just let me leave which is a very real possibility. That lifts some weight off my shoulders because, that may sound great in theory, I did not view divorce as a possibility. For more info the EA never became a PA but open the door for the next EA which did. But that is a whole new chapter in this discussion and I do not think it is necessary for us to go there.

So to reiterate, I think Cobra and I understand each other better now. We might not necessarily agree but I do not think either one of us "needs" agreement.

How dare you throw my own words back in my face!!! and you are interesting because in contrast to Cobra you do remember exactly what was written and do not seem to fill in details as much - much more dangerous in my book! For me, I think I remember details and then do the research to double check myself so I can make sure my "assumptions" are right. And I HATE it when I find out I am wrong but it happens more than I like! As the case where Burgbud pointed out that my use of the word "shocked" was what opened the door to you attributing the emotion "aghast" to me. How devastating to find out I was to blame for the whole misunderstanding. That is why I really do try to use the correct words but I cannot be right all the time

Anyway... I do not think the above quote is applicable here because I do not feel like Cobra is bullying me or trying to control me. I THOUGHT that we were having a perfectly reasonable, though touchy and passionate, discussion about some ideas. While I do believe he has tried to bait me a little with some tweaks (like someone else has done on occasion), overall I think he has just treated me like anyone, man or woman, with whom he would be having a disagreement. His style is a bit aggressive but again I have not felt that he was bullying me.

I appreciate Corri's remarks but, I may be wrong, I thought Cobra and I were understanding that this was a discussion about the topics at hand more than personal attacks or anything.

It is fascinating to watch the interactions on this board. You can tell a lot about people, which I guess is the point.

Corri
I find it interesting that you seem to be so drawn to defend/support the men on this board that certainly don't seem like they need defending. They seem pretty certain of their statements/assumptions (Cobra and Nop come to mind) but you almost gush over them. I just find it interesting. Just an observation on my part and not sure if I have a point. Just something to think about I guess.

Fearless and Cobra both have their own points of view as they should, but they present them in very different ways. I don't think you should dismiss "style" when it comes to communication. No one likes a "know it all" especially the spouse that has to live with you 24/7. Very obnoxious, and many people on this board act like they have all the answers. If that was the case, why are you all here?
I enjoy reading everyone's stories and opinions like everyone else but criminy, chill out a little. Life is too short to take it so seriously.
Cobra, I think you are a very interesting man. But in my opinion, you are your own worst enemy. Searching for THE ANSWER in human behavior/psychology is going to be fruitless. And the more you dig in your heels, the more difficult of a time you are going to have in your M.
Just my two cents of course.

LFL,

I think you are right. Not only are Cobra and I writing about 2 out of many views on some different subjects but we are writing about them in 2 different styles (of many) and with 2 different backgrounds(of many) which just adds more depth and complication, I am sure. But then again life can be deep and complicated so hopefully it's just some sort of a metaphor for life in general? Too philosophical?? I think my brain is a bit fried

But on that same philosophical note your comment toward Cobra about digging in his heels and it reminded me of Taoism so I looked up this quote:



Oh and I think there may be some people that do actually like know-it-alls although you and I are probably not part of that group For example people without answers who are uncomfortable without having answers and feel they do not know how to find the answers themselves may find a know it all comforting. But people who can find the answers themselves do not need that personality and would probably suspect that the know it all personality is covering up an issue of their own.

All I'm sayin' is, blackfoot's post is going to keep me amused all day! And since it's cold and snowy here, I much appreciate that.

Fearless,

I want to thank you for being such a good “sport” and staying in the fray with me. I have actually enjoyed this discussion. These types of talks take me back to my college days when we would sit around and debate some philosophical issue. I still do that from time to time with my brothers.

Since you are giving more information about yourself, I am refining my view of you. There is still that something which I am having trouble putting my finger on…..

Actually I did not think I was adamant at all unless you thought I was sarcastic when I said I would look into this issue. I have already started asking friends about this and this will be a topic I look into more deeply. (and I will let my friends and family know that YOU are to blame for this latest case of introspection!) In fact here is an early theory - I do not try to control others at all however I do try to control my reactions to them, my feelings about them and my interactions with them. So Self Control is a big desire for me.

Ok, that sort of makes sense, I can go with that…. But still not completely buying the part about not wanting to control others…

And somehow I have always had the ability to communicate (usually) with the "I feel" statements rather than the "you make me feel". Well probably it has a lot to do with my mom. She was tough that way. We always had to take responsibility for our actions regardless of what a sibling did or friends at school did. We were forced to own our mistakes. Yet to your point while we could be punished terribly for our mistakes we always had the knowledge that our parents loved us completely.

Hmmm, with this I had another image pop into my mind, the image of my W telling our kids the same thing. Yep, I think this might be that thing that bothers me so much. I feel some similarity here between you and my W. I guess I don’t need to mention that if something in my W rubs me the wrong way, that same thing in others would have the same effect. Maybe this is what I was reacting to…

My W is also a very upfront, in your face type of person who does not hesitate to call others out on their stuff. She is a psychology major and believes in people being honest and owning their stuff, admitting their true feelings, not hiding behind rationalizations, being responsible for their actions. This all sounds hunky-dory in theory, but in practice, I don’t like to be on the receiving end of it and I know the kids don’t like it either.

While there is real value in this theory, her implementation is all wrong. She will push and confront in her drive to be honest and in so doing, the other person is backed into a corner and losses face. It is all to easy for her to defend herself with this. She is only asking that you be honest and own your feelings, plus she is doing it for your own good because she can separate you from your actions. Sounds good but it sure as hell doesn’t feel so good. Why?

My W is using her superior knowledge over the kids to manipulate them into an inferior position. It is a control tactic, but on a more subtle level. She is taking advantage of the kids’ mistakes to reassert her dominance. Teaching the kids the needed lesson does not require and shaming. When the kids lose face, they are shamed. Were they an adult, it would be their issue on how they choose to feel. But I do not think it is necessary for them to endure this at all.

Perhaps I have been unconsciously doing some of that myself. I have had to adopt her techniques in order to fight fire with fire and I guess I have picked up this one. Time to rethink this. My mother used to tell stories of how she was punished as a kid. My grandfather would reprimand by telling a parable, then make the kids think about it the rest of the day (she did say her older brother was once tied to a tree to think things over for something real bad he had done, but hey, this was pre-war Japan). Maybe I need to read up on more parables.

Fearless, do you think your ex could have felt the same sort of thing from you. You say you don’t control, at least overtly. You call people out to assume responsibility for their actions. That seems natural for you. But if that person was not raised to do this and came from a shaming background, as your ex may have, then your method will be very difficult for him to deal with. Furthermore, the logic of why he should own his feelings is irrefutable, so he really has no defense. If he can’t deal with his shame and he cannot defend himself, then best to just go into hiding, which is what he did.

That brings me back to you and my wife. I told my W that she needs to be aware that she is putting the kids into a corner and leaving them no face-saving way out. That is part of what makes my son so angry. He knows he is wrong, but does not want to admit it because W is forcing him to do so. The limits his options even more. No he has to admit he was wrong, plus apologize for getting mad about it. Then W says he is oppositional-defiant! That gets my blood boiling!

This is a subtle but powerful control tactic. It can leave the other person utterly without a defense. W has it honed to a fine art. I’m going to think this over more.

BTW, this whole post came to me as I was writing it. This has helped me pull out an idea I previously had and refine it further, so I could see it more clearly. I would not have had this epiphany had I not pushed the conversation with Fearless. So Fearless, thank you for sticking with me!


Lil,

This is an example of an erroneous assumption. There's no particular reason to assume that hairdog, choc, honeypot, GEL, NJ, cemar, etc. (including me) are staying out of the discussion to "try to be safe."

Sorry for my comment. I did not have you guys in mind when I said that, though I was thinking about CeMar. I see Hairdog, Choc, Honeypot, GEL, NJ, Fran, Karen and others as being very involved on this board. But there are many other lurkers.


LFL,

Cobra, I think you are a very interesting man. But in my opinion, you are your own worst enemy. Searching for THE ANSWER in human behavior/psychology is going to be fruitless. And the more you dig in your heels, the more difficult of a time you are going to have in your M.

I you keep in mind my comments above concerning my wife, you might see that my path is really not fruitless, but a necessary way to counter the control of my wife. It is not easy to do, but I have been able to move our marriage forward, though I’m sure my W will say it was SHE who moved it forward.


Fearless,

Taoists follow the art of "wu wei," which is to let nature take its course. For example, one should allow a river to flow towards the sea unimpeded; do not erect a dam which would interfere with its natural flow.

On one level I do subscribe to this theory. On another, I prefer to cut through with a canal. BTW, this may lead into another discussion, but for those enamored with eastern philosophy (and I would include myself), there are some weaknesses with seeking too much harmony. Inner peace is well and good as long as it does not foster complacency. The conflict oriented style of Christianity is one of the biggest reasons for the rise of Europe and western civilization over the Far East, IMO. Conflict can be bad, but it can create innovation and advancement. Just look at what war does for technology. Harmony and confrontation (or as MrsNOP said, conflict and resolution). Carrot and stick. Ying and yang. Male and female.

How dare you throw my own words back in my face!!!

I know. its all fun and games now, but its not so fun when your truly sorry about what you said, and its held against you.

Im a realll d!ck about that, tsk.tsk., and it came back to haunt me, when I cracked my one time.

much more dangerous in my book!

This, is, serious
We could make you delirious
You should have a healthy fear of us
Cause too much of us is dangerous
So dangerous, we so dangerous
My Flipmode Squad is dangerous
So dangerous, we so dangerous
My whole entire unit is dangerous
-Busta Rhymes
boy that takes me back a long ways... couldnt help it, first thing I thought of when I read that phrase.

How devastating to find out I was to blame for the whole misunderstanding. That is why I really do try to use the correct words but I cannot be right all the time
Im sure it was devastating.
Dont worry about being right all the time.
Thats why I am here. Ive got it covered. HAHAHAHA. LMAO. I can positively hear all the snorts. HAHAHAHAHA.

His style is a bit aggressive but again I have not felt that he was bullying me.


Me either, I think you and Cobra had a good- for both of you- exchange.

I thought Cobra and I were understanding that this was a discussion about the topics at hand more than personal attacks or anything

Relax fearless, you have a lot of good content in your posts. I thought I would see how you would react.
I give this reply to my provocation, my stamp of approval. LOL.
I will say though, that I could definitely see how your H would 'out logical' you and be prone to discount your emotions.


Take a deep breath. Your funny and OK.