I recall Fearless mentioning you but I did not know you two are in a relationship. I just thought you were another poster.
I do not believe it is controlling to ask your partner to accept that your feelings are genuine. I listen to fearless and validate her feelings. I don't believe asking your partner to accept your feelings as genuine is forcing your opinion on him/her.
Agreed.
I don't understand your views on assumptions. I will tell you that my ex-wife expected me to make assumptions, read her mind, etc. and I could never do enough.
And you never will. It is a futile exercise. Read Dieda. He explains this very nicely. My views on assumptions have nothing to do with reading the other person’s mind. I make assumptions in order to put myself into their shoes, to try to understand them for MY sake, not for their sake. It sounds like your ex wanted you to read her mind to better please her. That is placating and a no-win situation. She will keep changing the rule to keep you dancing.
What I was trying to say before is that understanding your ex would be for the purpose of trying to see things from her perspective to better understand her complaints about you. If you agree that her complaints are valid and should be acknowledged, whether you agree with them or not, you then need to understand why she says what she says, and how you play into her complaints. Does that make sense?
To be in a relationship where fearless and I can ask for what we want without resentment that it wasn't anticipated is very refreshing. I appreciate that she can meet her own needs. There is no expectation that I should make her happy by instinctively knowing the right thing to say or do.
Sound like you have a healthy level of differentiation that we are all trying to achive.
Cobra, I have to say as a man who sees the mistakes he made in his marriage and as the father of a D8 I don't understand your views at all on relationships or child rearing.
This is the problem with referring back to my past marriage issues without a full detailed explanation of the marriage dynamic along with each of our (xH and me) issues along with exact explanation of each issue and xH's and mine opinion on each said issue.
I appreciate your recommendations and will consider them. Overall, though, you are totally off-base so far. And to clarify although my marriage is over I am still trying to understand the past so I never make the same mistakes again. Instead I'll get to make all new ones well actually that's why I still read about others mistakes because I hope to avoid them too
Arguing over whose version of reality is correct is a sign of enmeshment on both your parts. Cobra
We were not arguing about a version of reality. The problem was that xH was trying to PROVE why my FEELINGS were WRONG. The basic fact is that my feelings were not wrong. I did not try to logically explain my feelings until he asked. Sometimes I tried to stick up for myself and just say they are FEELINGS and they are mine. But no respect for that so I LET myself (complete ownership for my participation in the dynamic) be drawn in to the logical explanation stage because I HOPED that he would see that as me trying to follow him and accept his needs. Neither way worked, in that my needs of being heard and having my feelings respected were not met.
Yes things were out of balance. I did try to placate often and gave in often because I saw how difficult things were for him. I tried to protect him at times. For all of his Extrovert nature and strength, he was obviously more sensitive than normal. I respected and understood that it came from his family dynamic. He was the youngest and his family was one where everyone tried to make life as pain-free as possible. So my xH developed into a "man" who was uncomfortable with the fact that he was capable of hurting anyone. And this was something he tried to not avoid by projecting things onto me so that he was not the cause of my hurt feelings; I was the cause of my feeling hurt so he did not have to feel badly.
While I do not think my examples are perfect examples I still believe that seeing your assumption as fact is a significant problem. The problem is not that the wife asks "Are you mad at me?" the problem is that she does not believe him when he says NO and the reason is because she is so SURE she is right. Fearless
Again, I do not see this as an assumption issue, but a fight over getting the spouse to validate your views, and therefore you. Cobra
I do not understand your point. The argument about validation would be if the wife said, "I feel that you are mad at me", the husband said "you should not feel that way", she says "well I do", etc. That would be asking the husband to validate her feeling that he was angry. BUT in the example I used, the wife does not state a feeling but rather pressures her H because she is so certain that he is mad. There is no room for validation in this situation because of the way the argument is phrased i.e. her assumption as fact that he was mad.
However I think the point is clear that in most arguments there is more than one issue going on which is why I stated in the previous post that "assumption as fact is a significant problem" which is not the same as the only problem or even largest problem. However it can be significant enough to complicate already complicated issues.
Which usually means it becomes a bigger issue than it should have been but then that feeds into the original fear which causes the cycle of avoidance again. Fearless
Nope. This is an assumption on your part and denial of how he feels. You may not think it should be a big issue, but he might. Whose sense of “big” is the right one? Cobra
xH and I are on friendly enough terms and separately we are both attending counseling so that helps with this interpretation. In this case there is no assumption on my part because xH was the one that came up with this explanation. I will let him know that you think that he and the counselor are not on the right track.
And for further explanation using the previous example if he had told me on Monday that he wanted to go out with Bill on Friday, I might have asked him if Saturday would work better or have requested that he get home by 1:00. Nothing dramatic but not complete and full "support" of his plans. This would be hard for him. So by putting it off until Thursday night he avoided the "pressure" of my requests but then I would be angry which would be bigger for him. Trust me this is all his definition of big and not mine. For me none of it would be big but I did understand that he was different than I was.
What was the reason for you trying to change the dynamic, to get him to see your logic so he would change? You think that because you “made” all these changes that you are the flexible, open minded one, but I don’t see anything about accepting him as he is. That makes all your past efforts paramount to control, and he knows that, doesn’t he? Cobra
I do not follow this one either. I did not want my xH to change; I wanted the marriage dynamic to change. I did not want to be taken for granted with my feelings discounted or demeaned. I did not and still do not see how this is about him changing.
What do you mean by accepting? I did accept him completely. He knew that and he would tell you himself today that he was accepted by me. The problem was that HE DID NOT ACCEPT HIMSELF. And he began to see that as my problem; somehow I was supposed to be able to MAKE him accept himself. (This is where the complicating MLC issue entered our picture. His past coping mechanisms were beginning to fail and he did not know how to handle it) I wanted to believe that I could help him see himself as he was and to see how great he was. He had no need to change himself he only needed to accept who he was. I wanted to help him accept himself.
And on top of that another issue he has is that he has wanted other people to take the lead in his life and change him however he also saw unconsciously (or barely consciously) that want and need as weak and hated himself for it. So that put me in a box because at times he wanted me to control him and would be angry if I did not but other times he fought against that feeling of control. (Again this is HIS and the counselor's explanation)
I was very open about communicating what I was upset about but xH was so sure that he knew the real issue. I could tell him until I was blue in the face that waiting to the last minute showed disrespect for me and did not allow me to make my own plans for the evening. Fearless
More attempts at control…. Cobra
***I am baffled at this one. Are you saying that being willing to communicate openly and honestly is a controlling behavior?? I do not agree with this at all. I MUST be missing something. Please respond to this question. ***
But he just KNEW that the real problem was that I was jealous, wanted him to be home with me and did not want him to go out with his friends so he believed it was my fault that he would wait until the last minute to let me know about these plans. Fearless
So he tries to control you and convince you that he is right and you are wrong. Are you seeing the dynamic? Cobra
Again you do not know the whole situation. This was about him getting what he wanted and making any issue I had with his behavior be about me. He really did not care about controlling me; he wanted to get his way without having to acknowledge that his actions would hurt me.
I do not mind that xH assumed things about me but I did mind that when I tried to explain what I really felt, I was told that I was not being honest and did not know what I felt. At least after counseling I have gotten validation that I was right after all. FWIW.
The mistake your counselor made, IMO, is affirming that you are right and your H was wrong. Now you’ve got a stick to force your opinion onto your H, right? I bet he doesn’t like that too much, and it probably makes him even more resistant to hearing you (assumption on my part!)
Again a lot of context and many years of marriage and personal counseling went into that quick statement. There was not a dynamic of the counselor agreeing with me and calling my xH wrong. xH liked the counselor so much he has continued to see him alone. Our counseling was never about me having a stick to force my opinion onto xH. Rather he initiated counseling to PROVE to me that I was the one at fault for the issues in our marriage so it would be easier for him to leave me. The fact that the counselor liked us, thought we both had issues that needed to be worked on and felt that we could work through them really confused my xH. xH liked the counseling and oddly many times worried that the counselor had been rough on me.
My xH was/is a deeply complicated man and not much of what you have written here applies to him or to me. But thank you for trying and I can understand that in this case there is so much missing information that you would have to make assumptions to even try to converse about this subject.
I will consider the controlling issue though and I will keep an open mind about it. I know I do have an issue with maintaining my own control but I never thought I tried to control others. Rather I think that I try not to control people and I try not to let others control me. My friends do not think that I am controlling at all. They also do not think I am subservient either. I think the dynamic with my xH was due to his lack of self and without xH having balance I seesawed according to his leaning.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
This was my interpretation and later in counseling he did not disagree with it. In fact my counselor and I spoke about this recently. xH really was not a bad guy but somehow he was able to operate on a level where his feelings, needs and wants ALWAYS came first. Of course he would do nice things for me however if there was a choice, he would always do something for himself first.
It is so interesting that you describe your childhood that way because xH's was almost the exact opposite (his parents and family doted on him and I doubt he ever heard the answer no to a request. He adores (practically worships) his family so much that dealing with the fact that they may have contributed to his dysfunction has been a huge hurdle. His manipulation was even more complicated. It was not about getting what he wanted but about getting what he wanted without acknowledging that someone else may have to be hurt or sacrifice for him) and yet it seems you have similar results. I noticed something on Mrs.CAC4's thread where I thought my xH acted very similar to her but his childhood was so different. I guess it shows that there are many different ways to the same dysfunction?? Very weird!!
To be fair it would be hard for me to characterize my reactions accurately and fairly. I think that I am a reasonable person and even though he waited to the last minute to spring these things on me and irritated me with the "I know you'll be mad", the type of anger I showed him would probably be best characterized as "why couldn't you have told me earlier? I could have made plans with my friends. Haven't I asked you to let me know about these things. Why don't you consider my feelings?" And maybe my voice would have been raised. Although I am not much of a yeller, I do raise my voice and I know xH was sensitive to that.
I wrote a short novel to Cobra which might have more of the information you are asking about.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Cobra, first and foremost, is a highly intuitive man. Second, he is also a highly intelligent man, he is highly logical, can whip through ideas and concepts in no time flat, and reaches conclusions, based on his intellect and intuition, in the flick of an eye.
I believe Cobra's assumptions are coming from the study of human character, and what he has learned about base actions of the human animal when presented with certain situations.
In large part, he would be correct. In the same way that an animal trainer understands that if you corner a wounded animal, its response will likely be to attack... out of fear and hurt.
Conversely, for Cobra, being the type of person he is... he will miss a lot, for he concludes things before it ever becomes a conscious thought. In this sense, Cobra is missing a TON of information that would be useful to him. I'm sure this has hit him in his job more than a few times...(???)
Cobra's mind is like a highly honed computer processor. That is not to say he lacks emotion... it's just that the hard drive is always working in the background, processing, digesting, responding, rinse, repeat. It happens whether he wants it to or not.
Cobra also has a highly developed sense of humor and is capable of wonderful and deep emotional response... IF he feels safe himself.
He happens to be married to a woman who will zing him when his defenses are down, so he rarely lets them down. But when he does, he's a really cool person.
So... keep this in mind when you intellectually engage him in a convo, fearless. If you are the very sharp woman I think you are, you'll understand me.
I'm sure it may be obvious to you but I just realized THAT, after thinking about how your and xH's different childhoods created a similar dysfunction, BECAUSE xH was always told yes and told yes unequivocally he did not know how to handle anything other than a total YES. Like if he asked me about going out with his friend and I gave him anything less than a 100% unequivocal YES, then he felt hurt and put upon. I did not understand that for awhile. Then even when I became aware of it I could not figure out a way to deal with it. He just felt anything less than a complete yes was hurtful. Again it is not that I demanded anything; I would just ASK if he could make a change in plans (maybe something as simple as waiting to leave at 5:30 rather than 5:00 so I could see him) And again it was the ASKING that was a problem. This is not about demanding or yelling at this stage.
However I can understand that he felt badly because of his issues. The problem is where did that leave me? Was I supposed to give up my needs? I could not understand why we couldn't look for a win-win solution because it seemed so easy. But again with a person who is not familiar with any form of compromise, I'm sure it would not feel comfortable.
Anyway... just more thoughts about how people develop.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Cobra, I have to say as a man who sees the mistakes he made in his marriage and as the father of a D8 I don't understand your views at all on relationships or child rearing.
You don't have to understand it. You simply must respect it first, as you do Fearless... then come at it.
Cobra is not attacking. He is discussing his view point. Believe me, you KNOW when he is attacking.
Most of what Cobra does is foreign to most of us. But he is married to a woman who has a different upbringing and cultural differences than many of us do. Compound that with his wife's OCD problems, hypocondriac tendicies, etc., you might find common ground.
Cobra is also in a loveless marriage. To his credit, to develop 'LOVE,' one must develop 'respect.' I personally may not agree with some of his 'methods,' but I am not Cobra, and I do not live his life. He has seen improvement, so....
He is working toward 'respect,' at least. If you go back and read his story from the beginning, you will see a man full of loathing, self-hate, hate for his wife and a boat load of anger and resentment. He has made tremendous strides.
So. I understand your 'protection' of Fearless as she is your SO. But. I see Fearless as fearless... she can stand on her own two feet... and BOTH of you need to understand Cobra... before you rush to... conclusions.
The thing about Cobra is he just won't let up until he's got it. That's a very cool thing about him but it can also be an annoying thing about him. If you get past being annoyed and let him "get it" then he can come up with the most amazing insights that you wouldn't get anywhere else - and all for free
Fearless, your xH sounds very much like my H. He too had a very happy childhood with parents who doted on him. He too cannot bear to cause anyone pain - and I actually think that this is more his natural make-up and would have been that way whoever brought him up because our s7 has the exact same trait. If s7 does something bad it is extremely difficult to pull him up about it. The mere flick of an eye in his direction is enough to cause him such intense shame that he will immediately turn the tables and make the person who has merely noticed what he did into the bad guy for making him feel his shame.
I have been working on this with him by just keeping up the pressure, following him to his room as he screams abuse at me (this will be for looking a bit shocked or stern that he hit his sister say), staying with him until the main anger subsides, talking to him about why I am not the bad guy and in the end just asking him to talk to God about it and then leave him for 10 minutes. Then ask him to think of a way to make up for it. The making up part is essential because it makes everything right again. This does work but it is extremely difficult and I can easily see how parents could fail to do this for someone who has that trait. They must be made to face the pain of their shame and become more inured to that feeling. Shame is necessary to know when we have done wrong but the ultra sensitive person who feels shame so intensely is a very hard person to deal with. The problem is it is counter-intuitive to keep pushing in the face of such over-sensitivity.
Like you say Fearless your xH is not a bad guy but the degree to which he had to protect himself from shame was such that it was inevitable that he cast you in the role of bad person. Some people just have that extra sensitivity to shame and others are shamed by crappy FOO, or siblings or peers or whatever.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
and BOTH of you need to understand Cobra... before you rush to... conclusions.
Because... I wasn't talking to Cobra.
The thing about Cobra... is... he 'gets' me. We tend to leave each other alone now. When he first came here, I was all 'in his face,' and we had our 'tete a tete's' make no mistake.
But. Cobra sees right through me, all my flaws and insecurities... he also sees my strongs points, etc. I have no problem with that. He accepts me, and I accept him.
Don't know that we could EVER be married... but. Respect is there. Kwis?
I also respect CeMar. I know that will blow most of you over, but I do. We go back a long ways, and CeMar did a TON to help me in understanding my H. He has a very gentle, very understanding side to him, and I found his ingsights to be invaluable, even though he struggles with his own personal situation. I do not judge CeMar. I adore him. Don't know that I could live with him, but I do adore him.
Not that I am putting Cobra and CeMar in the same category.
But. I will, first and foremost, always give credit where credit is due. And Cobra has come A LONG WAY. Seek first to understand, then to be understood, is what I see in Cobra. And most people, for that matter.
well actually that's why I still read about others mistakes because I hope to avoid them too