Obviously my tone and way of addressing people gets under your skin. That’s fine. That’s your problem, hope you get over it. I don’t think I make open comments on one persons’ thread that I think necessarily apply to others. I agree there is not one answer that can cure anyone’s sitch or be applied exactly to another, but there are patterns, and those patterns are often consistent.
There is however one underlying theme that IS consistent across all people, all situations, all stages of recovery, and that is the consistent way in which people react to fear, anxiety, happiness, joy. Those reactions are only different in people with severe personality disorders. For the rest of us rational people, our feelings and emotions are all the same, and because of that, there is a level of predictability that can be applied.
There may be many, many different cases and patterns of those reactions, but the most basic premise always holds. If your H was depressed before the marriage went sour, then either he has a biological tendency toward depression, he has a larger psychological problem (and I never consider either of these possibilities in any of my posts), or he has a pre-existing issue, likely in his FOO, that causes him to be depressed.
But the pattern still holds. You are taking all this way too personally and inferring that I mean you to be a villain of some sort, that you are to blame for making your H feel disconnected and depressed. I am not saying anything of the sort. In fact, even if ALL his problems could somehow be directly traced to you, it would still not be your fault. You may have caused a lot of his pain, but you would be a victim too and only acting as you were conditioned to act. So why are you so sensitive about this? Perhaps you have not completed your soul-searching
My xH now states that his unhappiness/depression came first and was about his own personal issues but it morphed very quickly into being all about me and the marriage. He did not know or believe that at the time. It's only something he realized later after going through counseling on his own.
Makes sense. A typical pattern.
Granted our issues were not about sex but there were similar comments - I did not "make" him happy, my unhappiness with work caused him to be unhappy, etc.
Two points here… one is that there may not have been anything you or anyone else could have done to make him happy. The other is that you may have been able to do something, he might have been happy for a while, but it would have been at your expense. Neither is an option.
He now tells me that it was all BS. The fact that he began an affair somewhere in there only made the issues worse.
Yep, we’ve seen this pattern before. It has played out repeatedly on the MLC board.
He said that he was so absolutely sure that i was a horrible person and it was all my fault that he believed counseling would prove it. The fact that counseling didn't "show" that it was my fault was a very complicated problem for him.
Everyone one here who has gone through this raise their hand…. too many to count.
Yet so far I have yet to see one of those people move on to happiness after leaving their spouse. So if the theory was true for them, the ending of the marriage should have "made" them happy.
Isn’t that what everyone is saying on this board? Now I’m lost on what your original point was….
I just mention this because it is difficult when people talk in absolutes.
Don’t project. Say “It is difficult for ME when YOU speak in absolutes. It makes me feel like you are blaming me.”
OK, Ill try to be more sensitive to your feelings.
I wouldn't dare to assume that you, Cobra, etc. are incorrect in your evaluation of your marriage problems.
No, I wouldn’t make that assumption if I were you.
I'm not sure why you think you get under my skin? I think our different points of views are useful along with our different writing styles. Please understand that I don't take this personally. How could I when you don't even know me? That's something I see at work all the time. I don't take people's criticisms of me at work personally at all because it isn't about me; it's about the job.
Anyway... the point is I am just fine with you and your posts so there is nothing for either of us to worry about. I think it might be that I have a lot of passion for the work everyone is doing here and that may come across in my posts.
As far as xH, yes he did have issues which he is working on in therapy. I wouldn't call them anything to dramatic however he was going through classic MLC issues. There is a book called Midlife Passages which explains that we ALL go through midlife and the crisis happens when we don't address our issues (shadows).
I haven't personalized this at all and like I've mentioned before I am not all that sensitive. The only reason I have posted is to give another perspective to other people. In case other men or women have similar circumstances to mine, then they won't feel alone.
Quote:
Perhaps you have not completed your soul-searching
I definitely have not!! I've been rereading Care of the Soul and plan to reread Midlife passages. I've done a lot of working on my own personal issues for the last 10 years and while I have made a lot of progress, I don't expect my soul searching will ever be truly completed.
"Here is a test to find whether your mission on earth is finished: If you're alive, it isn't." Richard Bach
Quote:
Don't project. Say "It is difficult for ME when YOU speak in absolutes. It makes me feel like you are blaming me."
There is no projection from me however you're right that I should be more clear. You statement does not capture my meaning. And I have not felt ANY blame from you so that is completely out of blue and makes no sense.
This does capture my belief: "I believe speaking in absolutes may simplify issues to the point where alternative solutions are overlooked." I am an engineer so I see this all the time in problem solving. Engineers are so sure of the solution some times that they do not properly define the problem (this is where absolutes are useful - strength of materials, etc.) and look at all solutions. I was just speaking with another engineer about this yesterday so that's funny that this comes up today.
Quote:
OK, Ill try to be more sensitive to your feelings.
Don't spend a second worrying about me:) There are much more useful ways to spend your time.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Thanks for all the interesting and thought-provoking dialogue.
So, I made some progress last night. First of all, H showed up with flowers and thanked me for a week of "pleasure". I gave him a kiss and said, "and the weekend looks promising, too" referring to the fact that he had gotten me flowers.
So, last night when we went to bed, I was waiting for him to initiate. That is one of my problems. I feel that if he doesn't initiate, he's not interested. So, I brought it up. I said that I thought a lot about what he had said earlier this week and it was eye-opening. I also said that there are things that I would like but that it's not easy for me to say (even thought it was nothing crazy). So, I told him what I liked.
I also brought up the whole initiation thing. I said that sometimes I want to but I'm embarrassed to initiate. I said that i assumed that if he wanted it, he's initiate. He said that i need to get over that. He asked me how many times he gets shot down my me.
It was a decent conversation, although it was hard for me. So from that, we did have sex.
I hope that I am keeping the lines of communication open.
My other fear is that he will think that my advances are too contrived. I feel like I have this image of being reserved. So if I'm not reserved, he will think it's weird of me. I said that to him and he said I was crazy.
I guess I need to get more comfortable exploring this issue.
Married 9 years Kids 5 and 6 Bomb 2006 H back and forth for a year M now back on track
I was looking back at your initial post in SSM. You told your H that you sometimes felt used and he did not understand why. This seems to be a typical communication issue. How you feel and his intent may not necessarily be the same. To me, it is important to communicate in that fashion. You can use the "I feel" statement which is not the same as saying that "he makes" you feel because you are owning your feeling rather than blaming. So first of all understand that "feeling" of being used can be because of a lot of issues but does not mean that he views you that way. Then look at why you feel used. You do not necessarily feel used because your H does not kiss your neck however that action does help you with your issues. It seems there are issues you have with sex however I think you are trying to identify things your H could do to HELP you. I think this could be useful if he understands that you are not blaming him for your feeling but instead looking for help as you solve this as a couple.
I think when you talk about feeling appreciated in order to feel better about the relationship in order to feel more interested in sex which sounds to me like a Love Languages communication issue. Have you and H looked at the Love Languages book? It really does help in understanding how each of you communicate love AND view the others actions. That way you can respect the differences and recognize the others' way of showing love.
And finally this ties into your last post where you worried that your initiation would be perceived as contrived. So what if it is? What is most important is that you are showing that you take your H's needs seriously even if it is uncomfortable for you. Think about it the other way around. What if your H worries about showing you the affection you want because he thinks it is not "natural" enough and that it will not meet some unspoken standard of yours? Can you empathize that he may have the same concerns? Would you not tell him to not worry and just start trying? This might be a personal thing for me but I even think in relationships it can be cute to see the other person do "contrived" things just because they are TRYING. When you start doing something different it will feel more contrived to you than it will actually feel to the other person as long as you are doing it with the state of mind that you are GIVING this to someone. The key for me is to be able to open yourself up to giving your H these "gifts" without having specific set expectations in return. I do not mean that you put your needs aside forever. Just that you practice giving for awhile.
And as far as initiating, there are all sorts of initiation patterns, right? Maybe you and H can come up with your own "secret" communication of initiation for you. At least something that would show him you do want to work on this but at the same time develop something TOGETHER that lets you feel more at ease.
Just some thoughts. Good luck with the rest of your weekend. It definitely started on the right foot:)
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Three books I think you need to buy and read thoroughly are:
“The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Laura Schlessinger “The Way of the Superior Man” by David Dieda “Passionate Marriage” by David Schnarch
Without the knowledge from these three sources, you will not get the full picture of what people are discussing on this board, and you will take much longer in fully understanding the mind of your H, and men in general. This first book will show you why your H feels as her feels and why the idea of MLC is completely bogus. The second will give you an idea of what to expect from your H as far as his purpose in life is concerned and how that differs from yours. This is a VERY important book for HIM to read. The third will help address the issue you are having with discussing your vulnerability with your H. Schnarch will explain how you may be making (or may have made) your H responsible for your anxiety, then getting angry with him because he does not read your mind properly, among other topics.
I strongly recommend you not put off reading these books.
I just wanted to chime in here and make sure that you understand some things for certain about your husband's affair.
It is NOT your fault that your husband had/is having an affair. That is 100% HIS choice.
You are 100% responsible for your contribution to the state of the marriage pre-affair, as is he. Again, that does NOT make you responsible for the affair.
I appreciate your attempt to rectify the sexual issues in your marriage. I think that you should be positive that the affair has ended, and that you should both be tested for STDs before you continue your exploration of a new sexual relationship.
Regardless of your response to my opinion, at the least, insist that he wear a condom for any oral or intercourse contact until the affair is proven to be over and you have both been tested.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Sorry cobra have to disagree that mlc does not exist! Yes I think that there may have been problems with R issues that have not been addressed but in mid life they come screaming to the fore! Both men and women evaluate what lies ahead in mid life and the things lacking in their relationships or work come to a head.
This often results in a man having an affair maybe because he feels the spark has gone in his M ie. less sex or not being appreciated at home or feeling work is just a chore and he hasn't done all the things he dreamed he would do or he just wants to feel free again. I say he but this could be the woman too. While lack of sex could be one of the issues it is not always the case you only have to look at some of the people on the mlc board to realise that.
From reading some of the posts here I realise why my H had an affair 15 years ago and can see things more from his point of view BUT my point of view is different. Yes I didn't initiate sex so often because I was exhausted with a young baby and a H that did absolutely nothing around the house and I mean NOTHING!!! Sorry but I didn't want to do much other than sleep and didn't care about sex. So o.k. he may well have felt frustrated and thought I didn't care about him well boo hoo! Why couldn't he have done something more to help? If he had booked a weekend away so we could have had time alone and had explained he was frustrated I would have tried to change but no he chose to take someone else out for dinner and to hotels for sex. I have read books on what makes a man tick etc. but the reality is most men don't try to fix what they already have they just look elsewhere. I've thought a lot about things I've done wrong but I would bet my life my H hasn't for one minute considered what he might have done to contribute to any problems in our relationship!
I absolutely agree there has to be a build up of resentment and lack of communication before a M/R breaks down often caused by lack of sex/inimacy but it is never 100% one person's fault. You can read all the books on the planet but they don't help when only one person is taking notice of what is written and honestly most psychiatrists I've met are insane and psychologists aren't much better. Believe me with a son with serious mental health probs I've met quite a few!!!
My heart breaks for every man and woman on this board that wants nothing more than to feel loved both physically and spiritually by their chosen partner and is searching for a way to achieve this. Good luck to us all!!!
