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Whatis;
I had an eliquent reply this AM, previewed it and in my hurried state forgot to submit it prior to logging off. I can't for the life of me remember what I wrote other than thanks for not taking my last post in the wrong light.


"We are not right any more than they are, nor are we necessarily in more pain than they are. We are simply on the receiving end of the broken vow with the highest visibility and worst PR spin."

I have been thinking about this Grasshopper quote since you posted it to me. I am not sure I agree.

As I remember it, I vowed to love, honor, cherish and respect her. I vowed to forsake all others for her. I vowed to do this in the good times as well as the bad. I HAVE DONE THAT!

I did not ever learn to read her mind, but never promised that I would. If my memory serves, she made the same promises I did. It seems to me that if one of us is unhappy, then it becomes incombant upon that person to work within the framework of the marriage to address that unhapiness. I have no doubt that she perceives that this unhappiness has gone on a long time, but I am equally sure that this is part of her revisionist history.

My point is not to stand on the mountain top and decry the injustice of it all, but to point out that the "sins" are not equal. It is not acceptable for her to view "years of broken vows" as a justification for her infidelity, because there hasn't been years of broken vows. Her twisted perception may be that there has been, but that is simply not the truth.

So where does that bring us? Why an affair? Again, I know there are many reasons, but the bottom line is still a lack of respect and the sense that for whatever reason, she is somehow intitled to this experience.

HOW DO YOU CHANGE THAT?

Especially when you can't have a rational discussion with them about your relationship.

Without discussion, we can reinforce only with our behavior, which can be positive, negative, or neutral. If they continue with there immoral and hurtful behavior despite our pointing it out for what it is, and our reponse is neutral or positive(we continue to do things for them and be there for them and be a "good friend") we in effect reward the behavior. What is left to do other than introduce negative behavior into the equation. ie. if you continue to do this, then I will do that.

I wouldn't tolerate this behavior from any other friend. And I say that with some authority because I havn't in the past. If a friend of mine was acting this way, I would attempt to get them to address the problems, but if the behavior continued I would not forsake them, but I sure as h$ll would distance myself from them.

I guess I am starting to come to the conclusion that telling them is not enough. I have told her many things since the bomb that she does not believe or just does not care, so why would she care what I TELL HER about her unfaithfulness. She may know deep down inside that I do not condone her behavior, but that obviously is not enough to inspire a change in her behavior.

Heyya 81

I tend to agree with you on most everything.

party on, Garth.

8, I think we can rationalize whatever approach we want, that's what is so nice (and maddening) about theory. I too have been giving thought to our dialogue. You cite my lack of success in the "stay at home" approach as an indicator of the success of that approach. I started thinking about the length of time of have been reading and participating on this BB and trying to remember which approaches have been successful. In all honesty, I can't remember one person who showed the W the door who has had them come back. The successes I have seen have been people who waited it out or actually returned home themselves after walking out. Now I'm sure there is far more to it than that, it would be great to hear from others with the opposite experience. Decisions, like you and I, are in the process of making are extremely difficult. Just food for thought.

Whatis, thank you for your continued input. I too would welcome others with either experience. My observation that the "keep them home" model has not to date, brought you success, was more along the lines of what you have commented on elsewhere, situations are different and what works for one may not work for another.

I do appreciate the fact that the choice to show her the door is dramatic and therefore requires additional considaration. Once it is thrown out there you have to back it up, and once they leave you have lost many opportunities, by the same token, if what you have been doing is not working, at some point you need to try something different.

I have gotten the impression that part of my wife's complaint is my not paying enough attention to her, so going dark and/or asking her to leave both have significant potential downsides. Right now she is not admitting to lacking anything. She is in the same home, her bills are paid, she has started a new rewarding job, our belts are off our backbones, insurance is in place, her truck is being paid for, her children are cared for, she has the friendship of the man she has been with for 26 years and knows her better than anyone else in the world, and the emotional fulfillment of her love affair with OM.

WHY WOULD SHE CHANGE HER MIND?

I know be an awesome new me and wait for the affair to sour, but then where does that leave me in terms of the relationship?

8, I'm with ya! I know the thing that sits in my mind re my sitch (and I hope this is helpful) is that when I suggested counselling to W she was almost desperate to refuse and keep things as is. I wonder, if she is so set on this new R and so sure of it, then why the absolute refusal to a) discuss our future and b) go to counselling and prove we shouldn't be together. She seems so fragile despite the declaration that she is "committed" to OP and that R. If she were able to say calmly that this is where she stands and where she wants to go, that would reassure me that I could call it quits. If she said "I'm a lesbian and that's that" then I could call it quits. I wonder too if your W's seeming commitment to the OP is really that binding. Why doesn't she just leave, why stay? What is keeping her there? Is it just the kids? I'm just not sure they are as sure of themselves as they want us to think.

Whatis, I am in agreement, she is not anywhere near as sure as she wants everyone else to believe. The few times I have mentioned something like how much this hurts me everyday, she almost immediately begins to cry. She has not filed, but is slowly working towards being out of the house. She recently contacted a realtor friend of ours about rentals, but has not even mentioned D for over a month. She retained an atty the first part of Jan. I have not heard a word about that from atty., or from W.

I guess for as positive as some of that is, it also worries me because it is like the idea is gathering momentum, she is now telling friends "she is in the middle of a divorce". The realitor is the same one who has been looking for a house for her "friend" who is "moving to the area". It is almost like she is getting more comfortable with the idea as time goes on.

HOw often do you mention your feelings to her about your M? HAve you read my thread on Piecing. It sounds very similar, and I have talked to a coach. There is things there that might help. I thought my W's A was over and I moved over there just to find myself flipping back and forth. But I have learned alot, and You might too.

almost never, once a month or less, and since DB, never as a convorsation, only as a comment. The rest of the time is supportive and validate, although she NEVER talks about her emotions, only logistics.

8, getting back to the "boot her to the curb or not" question. I have always felt that this approach was when 1) I just couldn't emotionally handle the sitch anymore or 2) when I felt there was absolutely nothing else I could conceive of trying, in other words, I give up so lets get on with our lives! I've never viewed it as a means to save the M. I have trouble imagining any woman, after failing miserably in this new life you made for her, crawling back and saying "Oh take me back, I was so wrong, you are so wonderful" I tend to think kicking her out would be just another reason for her to build resentment. Now, if she chooses to leave that is a different story, in my mind, because she chose, not you. To me, kicking her to the curb means IT'S OVER.
Just more of my obsessive thoughts on this question.
Oh, and how the heck do you get her to leave? Legally, she has as much right to be in the home as you do regardless of who is the lawful owner? Changing the locks just means she gets a court order to allow her back into the home. Not pretty!

Whatis, I had never thought about changing locks, only telling her it was time to leave, that I am done with her cake eating, if she does not want to be here, then I don't want her here. That, quite honestly, is the truth as I see it at this point in time. It does bring up the question of how to back it up though. I will have to look into that.

It is just so frustrating, we can sit together and watch TV w/ S6 and she can be such a wonderful mother, just sitting and being close with her hand on his head. That kid would do anything for her, and yet she is willing to toss him under the bus with everybody else. I just don't get it.

How do they not see what they are doing. How does she not see her 14 year old daughter who idolizes her mother? and can't appreciate how lucky she is that her teenage daughter thinks that way about her mother? How does she look past her very sensitive 11 year old daughter who goes out of her way to just find ways to spend time with mom? and comes up with projects that she knows mom will have to help with?

I think that is what infuriates me the most, she has to see these things, it is not possible to not see them. That means she is choosing to disregard them in favor of her own "happiness". Even putting aside my feelings, how in the world can she be able to do this?