Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Afterall....This IS my Life III

You know, the definition of 'justice,' is paying for a crime ONCE, and then moving on. Suffering is paying for a crime, over and over and over again. Suffering is not justice. When one acts or behaves in a way as to make another 'suffer,' that is not justice, that is revenge.

As comforting as that is to hear (and I do thank you for your support Corri), I know that consequences can be longstanding. When people go to prison, they probably suffer just about every day but it is still justice because justice is for the person who was wronged. The offender must pay and yes, there is an element of revenge in there.

No one should get away with it, stranger or spouse.

I agree, it's almost sick to treat each other that way. In the past, I would have read that No one should get away with it and deduced that there is something within my power to stop it. Ya know, boundaries and all. All it was in the end, was me trying to control him, trying to change the way he treated me. When I finally accepted it was up to him to treat me the way he wanted it became clear that my only recourse was in whether or not I was willing to accept his treatment.

As we humans are not perfect, and love certainly is not perfect, I'm not sure why you'd give another so much power over you to begin with. Why in the world would you EVER put his opinion of you, his forgiveness, above your own?

Because it's the only way our R would ever have worked. And I wanted it to work. Disagreements aren't every day and even if they are, how many do you feel strongly enough about to insist on your way? For me, not many as I'm pretty laid back. Any time that I ever did insist on my opinion, my way, or my view, trouble ensued. But again, because the major disagreements were few and far between, we got along fine that way for a pretty long time. Having kids will bring out your opinionated side though, I've found ;). H doesn't like it and I'm not willing to just 'go along' where my kids are concerned.

Side note that ties into this. My karate school is having the annual family mardi gras party Saturday night from 7-11pm. Sensai asked at the end of the class last night if I'd signed up to come. I said no. He joked and gave me a hard time and then seriously said, come on bring the kids, it's a great time. Honestly, I'd like to go and the kids have had lots of fun on the occasions that H has been out of town and I've brought them along to functions. But I know it would be uncomfortable for H to come and I know he won't want me to take the kids without him. But, I thought, I'll ask. So I did, I told him I had no problems if he wanted to come too, the fee includes the whole family. He said no and I said I'd still like to take the kids, it would be fun for them....and I pointed out that he would be taking the kids to Baltimore (again) for his niece's birthday at the end of the month. He said 'It's not the same thing'. I said 'I'm not going to argue about it, but in principal yes, it is the same thing.' He said 'No it isn't, mine is a FAMILY event'. I said "I said I wasn't going to argue about it, in principal it is the same thing, but if you don't want me to take them, I won't'. He said 'Fine, bye'. So, for me to push the issue....it only makes me feel petty. I shouldn't have to push the issue and I'm not the type of person who wants a R where I have to do that. That's not who I want to be, it feels like escalation all the time. And so, he gets his way. Such has been our life together.

Ah, I see. All of this is YOUR fault. Every single shred of it, huh? Really?

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not trying to be a martyr. I could go on and on about the things that I view as his fault. But it doesn't change anything, I can't make him take responsiblity. Plus you guys would be the first to tell me to quit blaming H for all my problems. I'm just trying to take responsibility for my mistakes and when you're in the middle of it, when it's all coming down around you, forgiveness seems a world away. My kids' forgiveness seems to be what I think about most these days anyway.

My whole lesson in this is that I cannot change how my H treats me. I cannot change how he thinks of me. I cannot make him recognize his mistakes. Because he refuses to make these changes on his own, I cannot live with him. I had to drop the rope, let him go. I hate it, it sucks, I feel like a failure, a wimp, a cheater, and I've had to let go of some of my ideals about marriage and family. SCREEEAAAMMMMM. I hate it.

to NOT forgive yourself is you continuing to be a victim, and in victim mode, you cannot save an M. You can only run from it. When you are no longer a victim or a martyr, you make a choice....You are in an 'abuse-mode mentality,'

I feel like I made my choice with a clear head, I don't think I am running. He could say the word and we'd be back in MC. Someone who's running doesn't say that. I've consistently maintained that I do NOT feel like a victim and I hope I'm not a martyr. I'm not abusing myself, I'm just taking responsibility for my actions and that means not dressing it up and making it look pretty because it's not.

Cobra, I have no idea what you're trying to say. You used several quotes as a reference to some aspect of me, but didn't specifically say which aspect of me you are referring to. I'm a wonderfully multi-faceted individual you know, so you're going to have to be specific

Yes, this last remark of yours (that Cobra notes), Heather, sticks out in my mind too. I suspect I am looking at it differently than Cobra.

I think it is a prediction based on your H's past behaviors and is probably an accurate assessment. I also think that it might have been part of what led to your A also - this kind of thinking pattern on his part and yours. Low expectations of each other that existed before the A. He thinks to himself, amidst Heather's pleas for whatever was missing from the R at that time, "Oh, that's just Heather, blah, blah, blah...I can't be the guy she wants, I can't change her mind about me and our M. If she's unhappy. She's unhappy." Meanwhile, Heather thinks, "Look, I've begged, pleaded, screamed, written notes, H obviously has made his statement that he won't step up to the plate and meanwhile Mr. X has made it clear that I am worth some effort." Why is this important now Heather? Because if you are to have a healthy R in the future you must be aware of what the cycle of apparent "indifference" (I actually think it might have been more like shame and feelings of inferiority) will do to YOUR feelings of hope, resolve, and ability to get past these issues.

Heather, I hope your H listens to your note. Barring that I hope you have a wonderful, happy life, and meet someone who can grow along with you.

Karen

Heather:



Ah, no. Justice is not to appease those who have been wronged. Justice is to impose boundaries. The suffering aspect you speak of for the person who has done the wrong is their inability to accept the consequences of their actions, and to forgive themselves.

I'm curious to know why you ask your H for permission to take your kids to an event, and then allow him to control whether or not they accompany you?



Power play. You are now making him responsible for the future of the M.



What does being a victim or a martyr feel like, do you think? Seriously. Not setting you up, just talking it thru.

It is my opinion only that you are severely abusing yourself. I know it well, I'm not criticizing. For the moment you stop abusing yourself, is the moment your H will stop abusing you... for he cannot abuse you any more than you are willing to abuse yourself.

It's tough. {{{{{{ HUGS }}}}} to you.

Corri

Karen, thanks for your posts. I'm confident that time will bring the objectivity that I need to see the patterns in my R with H.

The suffering aspect you speak of for the person who has done the wrong is their inability to accept the consequences of their actions

I disagree. Suffering can equate simply to enduring, it doesn't necessarily relate to how the person handles the suffering. I might agree that certain ways of handling the suffering might indicate an inability to accept consequences, but not the suffering in and of itself.

I'm curious to know why you ask your H for permission to take your kids to an event, and then allow him to control whether or not they accompany you?

Isn't that the courteous thing to do? If you wanted to take your kids somewhere, did you just disappear or did you discuss it with your H first? I agreed not to take them if he didn't want me to because I just don't want to create additional problems right now. And there would be additional problems. He has family here, he could technically take the kids all day on a Saturday and just leave. I would appreciate if he didn't do that, so I'm trying not to open any doors that he would see as 'oh, you wanna play that way, I can play that way, etc'. Like I said, it's always escalation between H and I when we disagree. If I insist on my way, I'm usually sorry in the end.

Power play. You are now making him responsible for the future of the M.

Yeah, he's 50% responsible to be exact. Why on earth would it not be entirely plausible to say 'H, I will not stay in this R with you any longer unless you agree to MC'. Why would that not be considered a boundary? He has free will in this example and so do I.

What does being a victim or a martyr feel like, do you think?

When I think of a physical abuse victim, I think of someone who did nothing to bring about her abuse. I've done plenty to foster the abusive environment in my house and to cry and play victim and pretend to be innocent would be a lie. You wouldn't know it was a lie, but I would, so I would know if I truly felt like a victim or not. I would think a martyr consistently feels like they have to do everything becasue nobody can do it as good as they can. I don't recall ever feeling that way about anything, even at work. I'd much rather be lazy than do it all

Heather,
Why doesn't your H want you to take them to the karate shindig? I don't understand his objections.

I am not Corri, obviously, but if I want to do something with my kids I might say it like this: "I have a karate event on Sat and the kids and I will be there from 2-6. I'd like for you to come too, do you think you can make it?"

Or if it's an event I know he would disapprove of, I might say it like this: "Would you have a problem with me taking the kids to karate on Saturday?" and let him air his grievances.

I can't imagine that the warrior chick actually asks permission to take her kids somewhere! Is that really what you meant or was it like the above scenarios?

I've been reading your thread. I don't know what to say so I usually don't say anything but I'm reading and hoping for the best, if that's any consolation.

HP

Heath:



A boundary is something you place upon yourself, not on another. You staying in the M is conditional upon a specific action you've established for him. That's a power play.

A boundary would be: "I can longer stay in the Marriage as it is." If and how he changes is completely up to him.

As for being a victim... you have admitted to and accepted responsibility for your transgressions, you've apologized, you've gone to MC, and unless I'm missing something, have done just about everything one person can do to bring about change.

The victim aspect I see is where you continue to pay for a 'crime,' over and over again. You are 'powerless' to change the situation, for he will not allow for change. But just because he doesn't allow for change, doesn't mean you have to employ power play tactics of your own.

Once you recognize that, you don't have to be a victim any longer. If you choose to remain, and cry 'poor me,' for deciding to stay, you are a martyr. (just by way of definition, not saying you are doing this).

And I would have said what HP did, but she already said it, so I don't have to.

Corri

Why doesn't your H want you to take them to the karate shindig?

H is obssessive about the kids. We do nearly everything as a family and if I want to do something outside of that norm, it is almost always objected to....and if I insist, H will go to all kinds of lengths to make sure my alone time with the kids does not happen. He will engage them in playing and then when I try to announce it's time to go he will ask the kids 'Do you want to go with Mommy or do you want to stay here and play with Daddy?' If he knows he won't win that way, he'll plan a visit to their cousins' house so they will want to go. He'll do anything so that I can't make it happen. If all else fails, he'll physically bar me from taking them just like he physically barred me from implementing an earlier bedtime.

I can't imagine that the warrior chick actually asks permission to take her kids somewhere! Is that really what you meant or was it like the above scenarios?

First of all, I didn't label myself the warrior chick and honestly, I usually feel more like a wuss. But that aside...I told him I would like to take the kids. He said no. Quite literally. I tried again tonight just to clarify that I'd heard right....tonight I just said 'what were your final thoughts on Saturday? I have to pay in advance.' He said 'I don't want to go'. I said 'Would you mind if I took the kids?' He said 'Yes'. I said 'Well, would you mind if I went even though you said that you would mind I went?' (in sort of a joking tone). He said 'you can go by yourself.' I said 'I'd like to bring the kids. He said 'No'. I said 'you know, you can't really say that'. He just said dryly 'yeah', like 'whatever'. He then said something about how I could have a boyfriend there for all he knows (H says this in front of S6 who he is building legos with). I told him that was completely unwarranted and a ridiculous thing to say. He said 'no, it wasn't'. He mumbled something about 'You serve me papers and then I'm supposed to be comfortable with....'. That was pretty much the end of the convo. If I try to take the kids, he will put a stop to it somehow, I guarantee it. The warrior chick gives up.

I've been reading your thread. I don't know what to say so I usually don't say anything but I'm reading and hoping for the best, if that's any consolation.

Thanks HP. I need all the support I can get....even if it's online. IRL, I don't have any family nearby, although my family supports me from afar.

A boundary is something you place upon yourself, not on another.

Right. Got it.

You staying in the M is conditional upon a specific action you've established for him. That's a power play.

First of all, I didn't tell H quite like that....what I said here was that all H would have to do is say the word and I would be in MC with him. What I told H was that if he ever decided he'd like to work on the M, I would welcome attending MC. There are several things H could do that would probably result in me staying put, offering up counseling is one of them.

A boundary would be: "I can longer stay in the Marriage as it is." If and how he changes is completely up to him.

I haven't said anything differently to H. Inside of course, I have many ideas of which changes might encourage me to stay and I've disclosed a few of those here.

I don't see myself as a victim. I was trying to stay in a M that I knew I couldn't be in and stay true to myself. I was resentful because I was in a no-win situation and there was so much at stake. I wanted to be able to do it. Hence the warrior chick I guess. But I couldn't do it, I can't speak words that come from my heart and look in the mirror and see someone who didn't have the courage to live it. I'm not a victim, I was procrastinating a decision, hoping things would change. Things didn't change and I had to stop trying to direct the traffic.

He mumbled something about 'You serve me papers

I forgot to mention that H received the papers today.

Heather:

Gotcha, honey. If I've misinterpreted you and caused you frustration, I apologize.

You ARE being victimized, in my opinion. That you choose not to see yourself as a victim is good for you, for you won't lay down and take it.

I can't say anymore, now, because I'm tempted to give you all kinds of advice and thoughts on the matter, what I think you should do, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But it's what I would do, and you aren't me. And like I've said before, and I will continue to say, you are one sharp cookie, you love your kids, and I have no doubt whatsoever, you will do what is best for you and them, in your own way, in your own time.

Stay strong. And get yourself back in counseling. It's really great for the soul to have a professional tell you that you are NOT crazy.

Corri