Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Afterall....This IS my Life III

Hey heather.

Thats a well written letter. I sincerely hope your H finds someone or someway to assist him with the lesson you are trying to get him to understand.


I remember when x left me a vmail, to let me know that I was going to be served on my Bday, and that... 'blah blah blah..it wasnt intentional, to get back at you for my Bday...blah blah blah'. (mental reply)'Mmm. I didnt think it was. Does it matter when or why? you wanted a D. Its cool, I understand, Im not what you want, you made your point clear, (again, and again aaaaaaannnndddd again.) dont start worring about my feelings on it now. Sheesh. quit calling me'



can you elaborate on this some? I'd like to know what you expected of your W post-A and whether or not you ever had any real hope of being able to put your M back together.


asking me to elaborate is like shaking up a champagne bottle. there is definitely going to be a mess, and someone might even lose an eye. So, Im going to pop this cork as slooooowww as I can.

my expectations went back prior to post A. once she reacted to OM and started showing attraction, my expectation was that at some point she would become aware and make a choice. She did.

So I stepped back and gave her lots of space with 'nothing' to interfere with her decision process. Its what I would want after all, freedom and choice. No one nagging,picking or telling me what to do. ooops. I had lots of expectation and Hope. confidance in her and her decision making ability. Tons of confidance in her.

Post A I had zero expectations and Zero hope. Its called 'as ifing' or being outcome independant. Its the only way to have the proper mindset to implement unflinching boundaries. The trick is not engaging in negative pushes while implementing them. Whew. Boy is that a workout during an A. Really. Its like nothing else.
What I had was a goal and a plan.

Post Reconcil, I had a butt load of expectations, tons of resentment, and reached dizzying new heights of entitlement. Its cold, lonely, hard to breathe and think reasonably up here, but damn I can sure see a long way and the view is beautiful in a stark, serene sort of way. At least during the short intervals when my vision isnt fogging over from lack of o2. do do dooo.

Post reconcil my expectations were basically--
--x you had no problem engaging in independant actions to destroy the M, (which I held together despite your negative pushes, verbal abuse and best efforts) lets see some independant action proving that you want this R. Regardless of how I act, good bad or indifferant, I expect your actions to show that you want this R.

The good, masculine leading got good reactions, the indifferant was not appreciated but not an immediate deal breaker, the bad... ..she left. Seems pretty reasonable. Im still trying to figure out why I didnt leave immediately when she had bad behavior. Oh well. Im back to being really good at that part again. (clap, clear arms, dealer moving to the next table)

As for Hope post Reconcil, I never got it back after the A. I wanted to, so I gave her a humongous negative push so I could have hope again. Silly boy.

BTW, Ive decided Im done with 'do nothing' testing. Three of the four (and I didnt even think of one of the four) possible outcomes are not positive. Ive never seen the positive one, soo... apparently its a useful as adding a bullet to the cylinder after each successful round of Russian Roulette.

Thanks Mojo. Sigh. I still have other tricks up my sleeve to avoid intimacy but the pickings are slim (must be all them cigarettes and alcohol) and less satisfying. grumble grumble.

if a women were to ask BF "But will you respect me in the morning?" he would have to be brutally honest and say "No, babe, I don't even respect you right now.".


supposing that I let the sitch degenerate to such a point or that either of us preset expectations that- that was the type of encouter we were having, I would be more inclinded to say...
with levity...
'What makes you think I respect you now?' too easy.

he'd lay all the magic at his own feet and say that she was so wonderful cause he's a kickass leader.


If I were such a KA leader I wouldnt be divorced. Alexander the Great was an Effective leader. When he died his empire fell apart. Napolean was an effective leader. Washington was an effective leader to hold starving, unclothed, ill equipped men together at Valley Forge. There is a lot of magic to lay at the feet of effective leaders. (like OG Lou) It sucks that so much appreciation and respect is lost from a moment of weakness, but that sudden drop off of the pedestal of objectification is a real smash to the marble bust.


Heather, what have been/are your expectations Post Reconcil?

Thanks for the hugs everyone.

HD, I know he read my email, but that is all I know. He did not mention it nor did he say whether or not he'd gotten the papers. I am expecting anger when he gets the papers so I would be pretty surprised if he actually received them yesterday based on his temperament last night. He was definitely stand-offish, but I think that was a result of the email.

I did not send the letter because I wanted a response from him. I sent it because I wanted him to know how I feel. And based on past history, I would be silly to have expected any kind of response and/or acknowledgement anyway. My letter laid out how I feel and put the ball in his court if any reconciliation is to occur. He has consistently denied that the ball will ever be in his court, so I doubt that he will easily accept the idea that it is 'his move'.

Hey Blackfoot, I'm particularly glad to know you thought my letter was clear because your perspective is probably closest to H's.

I remember when x left me a vmail, to let me know that I was going to be served on my Bday, and that... 'blah blah blah.

Does that relate to my letter at all? I mean, are you saying that perhaps your ex was attempting the same thing, but you weren't buying it?

once she reacted to OM and started showing attraction, my expectation was that at some point she would become aware and make a choice. She did.

Did she ever tell you about OM at all, or clue you in that there were problems? When you say she made a choice, do you mean she made the choice by sleeping with him?

Post A....What I had was a goal and a plan.

Sort of winning her back? I mean, without changing who you are, was making yourself as attractive to her as possible your goal?

Post reconcil my expectations were basically--
--x you had no problem engaging in independant actions to destroy the M, (which I held together despite your negative pushes, verbal abuse and best efforts) lets see some independant action proving that you want this R. Regardless of how I act, good bad or indifferant, I expect your actions to show that you want this R.

Like I said, your perspective is most like my H's.

The good, masculine leading got good reactions, the indifferant was not appreciated but not an immediate deal breaker, the bad... ..she left.

Oddly enough, I stayed through the bad. It was the indifferent that got me. Because people get over being mad, they get over hurts and transgressions. But when someone becomes so comfortable in a state of indifference, that's where I lose hope, kwim?

Im still trying to figure out why I didnt leave immediately when she had bad behavior.

My guess is because you valued your M. Leaving immediately isn't supposed to be an option. That's why we get married as opposed to continuing to date.

As for Hope post Reconcil, I never got it back after the A. I wanted to, so I gave her a humongous negative push so I could have hope again. Silly boy.

I intuitively get what you're saying here, but did you have something specific that you needed from her or did you just need for her to put up with your crap for a good long while until you felt she had proved her loyalty to the M again?

Heather, what have been/are your expectations Post Reconcil?

Sigh. I guess I expected him to eventually forgive me or accept that he could not and let me go. Silly girl.

Heather:



Wow. I don't think there is any doubt he has forgiven you, or he wouldn't be in the house with you. I just think he still struggles with his resentment/anger/entitlement issues, and you trying to control the M.

Have you forgiven yourself?

Corri

Corri,
I haven't seen much evidence that H has forgiven me...he's never made it a secret that he stayed so he could be with his kids. At this point, I guess it doesn't matter.

Have I forgiven myself? I don't know. I don't beat myself up over it, but I'm still deeply ashamed and embarrassed. I certainly wish I'd have shown more strength of character and I don't really blame H for not being able to get past it.

I hope everybody had a nice Valentine's Day with their sweethearts. I got my sweethearts a big basket full of goodies...I am so grateful for them. They light up my life even in my darkest moments.

Heather:



BTDT. I'm sorry for you and the pain I know comes with such... understanding.

Quote:

Have I forgiven myself? I don't know. I don't beat myself up over it, but I'm still deeply ashamed and embarrassed. I certainly wish I'd have shown more strength of character and I don't really blame H for not being able to get past it.

Ah, well, then you haven't forgiven yourself. Not yet. It's okay. It comes. We are all less than perfect. We all slip. Were we all perfect, none of us would be here, and we wouldn't know the wonderful imperfection of one another, now would we? Isn't it funny how forgiveness is so easily given to another, but not so with ourselves?

Tell me. If you were to believe in a God, or an infinite wisdom of some type, and you asked His forgiveness, do you think He would give it? And if He gave it, in His infinite wisdom... yet you were not able to give it to yourself, in face of His forgiveness... what, then, would that say of your faith in infinite wisdom?

Just a rhetorical question I often ask myself when I beat myself to a bloody pulp.

Happy VDay to you and your little ones.

Corri

I was thinking about my comment to Blackfoot yesterday where I said I stayed with H through his 'bad behavior' phase, but that it's the indifference that causes me to lose hope. I didn't really realize how true that was for me until I said it....I think I could put up with a lot of bad behavior from H if I knew he still really wanted to be with me. I cried this morning as I realized that after so long of dealing with all of this, I no longer know my H and he no longer knows me. I don't know what his intent is anymore, I don't know if he wants to be with me anymore, I don't know if he still loves me or even cares about me, I don't know if he enjoys spending time with me. About the only thing he's offered up is that he's still attracted to me. Big fcking deal, he's attracted to 75% of the naked women on the internet. Hearing that doesn't give me what I need.

I know I messed up, I know it's difficult for him. Because I emphathize so much with him, it's difficult for me to blame him for how he's treated me. All I know is that the farther apart we drifted, the more difficult it was to accept. For a long while, we could go back and forth. I would struggle through the bad times, but when the good times came back around, we would fall back in line almost like nothing had happened. I just couldn't do that anymore.....the realization hit me as I listened to the man who used to be my H essentially tell me I was a bad mother.....on top of treating me like a dog in front of my sister who was here visiting....on top of saying negative things about me in front of my kids. No stranger gets away with that crap with me kwim?

If you were to believe in a God, or an infinite wisdom of some type, and you asked His forgiveness, do you think He would give it? And if He gave it, in His infinite wisdom... yet you were not able to give it to yourself, in face of His forgiveness... what, then, would that say of your faith in infinite wisdom?

Since I don't really believe in God, let's put it this way. I believed in the love of my H and I asked his forgiveness. He didn't give it. In the face of that, how on earth can I forgive myself? Just seems too self serving. When my M is falling apart and my family is crubmling before my eyes, where do I get off forgiving myself, ya know? It's just too soon.

Heath:

Oh, honey, I know. I'm sorry for all of this, I am. You know, the definition of 'justice,' is paying for a crime ONCE, and then moving on. Suffering is paying for a crime, over and over and over again. Suffering is not justice. When one acts or behaves in a way as to make another 'suffer,' that is not justice, that is revenge. Keep that in mind when you feel so benevolent as to offer your H your empathy.



No one should get away with it, stranger or spouse.



As we humans are not perfect, and love certainly is not perfect, I'm not sure why you'd give another so much power over you to begin with. Why in the world would you EVER put his opinion of you, his forgiveness, above your own? Sweety, how long are you going to flog yourself over something you cannot go back and change?



Ah, I see. All of this is YOUR fault. Every single shred of it, huh? Really? Dam straight forgiveness is self-serving, and you sure as heck need it the most exactly at the time when your M is falling apart.... to NOT forgive yourself is you continuing to be a victim, and in victim mode, you cannot save an M. You can only run from it. When you are no longer a victim or a martyr, you make a choice. Big dif. That is not a criticism. Both have their place in the world.

But I am seeing something here about you, right now, that very much concerns me. You are in an 'abuse-mode mentality,' and I'm hoping, for your sake, that you have a support network around you. Are you still in counseling?

Corri

I got that same sense too Corri.
I Do see why you would have some guilt feelings Heather but don't let them overwhelm you. That is all about You and not your H. You'd hate for that to follow you into other relationships.

On Heather’s thread “Afterall...This IS my Life II” she wrote:

Maybe I am missing something, but who WANTS a divorce?! Have you ever met anyone who puts that on the X-mas list? It sucks. It hurts. It will for a really, really long time. Maybe forever. Not to mention what it may do to my kids. There is nothing freaking good about that. So, no I don't WANT a divorce. But I don't WANT to be treated like a leper anymore either. So I am making the best decision I can make. I will heal from a D and my kids will make it because I will make sure they do. But I cannot heal from this M unless I get the hell out of it. I am through with it as it is. Like I said before, that doesn't mean I can't have hope that we can build something better in the future. There is nothing wrong or 'unhealthy' about leaving the door open. If that doesn't ever come through, well then I'll deal with D then. Good grief, Rome wasn't built in a day.

She quoted Cobra:

But it is just another form of escalation, a higher level of exerting power

(This was an exert from my comments “Take this whole divorce idea. She readily admits she does not want to D. She wants a separation. Why? What is the point of separation? If she is through, then she is through. Get divorced and move on. It seems to me like she is still trying to get him to come to his senses, to realize what life will could be like having his kids half the time, getting his own place to live, losing his family life. If all that will break through his denial, then great. I've done the same thing and it can be a wake up call. It can have positive effects. But it is just another form of escalation, a higher level of exerting power (which is why I think Heather gets so riled at me - she is still firmly in the power game, is doing what I am doing and I think she knows how it feels all too well).”)

Then Heather said:

You know what? That is probably exactly how H views it too. And because of that he will end up divorced instead of happily married with kids. What a crock.

This last remark has continued to stick out in my mind and I think it ties directly to this discussion about revenge and forgiveness. I also think Heather’s H is aware of this aspect of her too.