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Yep!! My H would say, if I said that, "go ahead and do what you gotta do, I only want you to be happy!" After getting completely pissed off, did I realize that its' a game that we're playing w/o saying the words!!

Unfortunately only 2 senerios,,either trying to get you to say, "Please, I don't want you to leave, I'm willing to do what ever it takes to save this M!" or She wants you to initiate the Sep. or D b/c: A.) Shes' lazy, B.) Financial reasons, or C.) She likes playing games,,,I just don't know in your sitch!

For what its' worth, my H sounds just like ur W,,,unapologetic and blameless-it takes too!
Good-luck & I just learned this, "the coolest head prevails"!

Stubborn,
I don't bother with it. It got to me not long ago because W was on the phone to her every night BUT do I want her on the phone or over at OW's house every night? It's a tough call and you made it. Now, what to you do? She's called your bluff but again may be just blowing wind herself. I'm not saying that making the request is necessarily a negative thing BUT it's a biggy to make. I'm just not sure why the DB coach thought it was such a hot idea in the first place? To ask her to speak to you in a certain way or put away her friggin dishes or something like that makes sense but to go for communication with the OW strikes me as the big enchilada. In other words, I think you have to be prepared to back up such a request or why make it? I guess you can say you would like her to respect it but if she can't/won't than that's up to her. Unless you're willing to back it up with some other big weapon, I don't know what else to suggest.
I would look at whether there were times that you were able to deal with her constant communication with OW. What was different then? What did you do to make this managable for yourself? Are any of those things possible again? Also, are there times when S doesn't spend so much time communicating with OW. What was happening then, what was different, what was your part in making that happen? Can any of it be repeated.
Just some thoughts for you to ponder. Let us know how it all goes, and especially, if you need some support!

I think DB coach wanted me to reinforce to spouse how painful this is and that SHE IS CHOOSING TO HURT ME. She is also choosing to shoot herself in the foot by risking her family. That's why I think it was suggested. It's actually some of the milder stuff that she suggested. Whoa, if I followed her advice to the letter you'd see the explosion from Canada!

alot of "act as if" helps but jeeze one can only take so much. I have also been known to leave unannounced when the clicking starts. Spouse didn't like that. boo hoo. I said I'd tell her when I was leaving. I did do that last night but when she said "ok, have a good time" I think something snapped. grrrrrrr. I have tried to captivate her in the evenings by inviting her to do things with me but...it doesn't always happen. She "invited" me to watch the oscars with her but then got up during commercials and typed. C'mon...perhaps I should have said it then. Perhaps monkeys should fly out of my butt...there are so many ways to feel: I am going to fall down and break, you are killing me, I am going to be ok either way but it will crush me first, my child will have to suffer needlessly for someones selfishness, I have done so many things wrong...choose one. Bad day at black rock...

part of me also thinks she might finally be able to see what she's risking if she had to do without it for a while.

Maybe I should just keep my trap shut, but often on these BB's I hear people saying things like "she might finally be able to see what she's risking if she had to do without it for a while" but I've yet to hear someone come back and say "Hey, it worked! Try it." Now, maybe I missed something, but when you walk it should be because that's what YOU need to do, not for the R. That's MHO, of course, and I'm open to changing it!
If confronting her about the emailing was mild, what were some of the more confrontative tactics suggested to you? Just interested cuz I'm feeling like a wimp compared to some of the DBers I hear out there! What else did DB coach suggest? And, why did you choose not to try those things? Not judging, again, just curious.

Phew stubborn... wish I had some good advice for you. I am to the point like you that I will not make my Hs choices for him. And I will not make his choices any easier. So... we can speak our piece and then have to leave it at that. I think you continue doing what you are. If W is busy on the computer at night... get out of the house. Go to the library or whatever... doesn't have to be out to a bar or club, but your S doesn't know that.

I am sorry for this sitch you are in. I feel so similarly to you. And I wish I had good answers. Best thing I can do is tell you to let her go and you might have to get really mad to do that. In my head, I'm letting my H go. It's his call right now. I will not try to convince him to stay or anything. but I will stand up for my kids and myself. Ugg... i know this isn't being very helpful. You are doing a lot of things wonderfully and I understand how you are feeling. You need to just take back some of the power here and decide that enough is enough. I'm not saying push your S to leave... but decide that you matter more than how you are being treated and stop caring about what S does. Easier said than done, I know.. but I'm going thru this myself and for the first time in a long time, I feel power and peace w. my sitch.
Good luck stubborn!

well check this out: DB coach said to tell spouse: "we chose to make this family together and if you choose to leave it fine. I will stay here and be family to DD and you will see her when you can. There will be no 50/50 sharing of child. This is your choice." That would cause the northern lights to dim, I assure you.

I can see in retrospect that this is based on having stood up to spouse before and having gotten a positive response. I have:

1)gone out of town with DD and then said "we're not coming home right now, we're going on ANOTHER jaunt". EXPLOSION!!!! So I came home, THEN after discussion of possible jaunt with spouse went anyway. She even defended me to other woman because of this. (after the explosion)

2)left spouse note that "I won't be home tonight to listen to your emailing OW" and slept away myself. Brings big apology

3)Spent the night away from home when she has her "sleepovers" and not been at home when she waltzes in @ 5:30am to get ready for work. She gets really pissy and tells me how irresponsible I am etc etc then gets over it and ends up apologizing for something...might not be related but it is a sign of some sort of remorse. Tough job for a woman who is "always right" (wait, are you sure I'm not married to YOUR wife?)

4)left the house with no notice when I hear the claky clak clak of email.

In short make spouse aware that her choices and sense of entitlement are the root of this problem and there will be consequences if she continues. (I am not saying I had not part in the initial "downward spiral" of relationship, I know EXACTLY what I did wrong and have admitted it several times)
Spouse is a person who does not face her "less than perfection" qualities very often or very well.

I know exactly how you feel about being a "wimp" but am sometimes able to take solace in the fact that I (and YOU) have a strong, long lasting strength. Sort of a "still waters run deep". But FFFK you have been at it longer than I so I can only imagine how ready you are for this to be over.

can you explain this more: "when you walk it should be because that's what YOU need to do, not for the R." (and can you explain how to use the damned "quote" thing on the bb?) Did you think that I was going to walk?

Jules, I know what you mean about getting mad. I was thinking the other day that I hated the thought of being so angry with spouse that I could give her up...it made me so sad to think of feeling that way about her, the person I so love and who gave me our wonderful DD.

I am sure that part of my emotional make up right now is: Bomb fell right after vacation during spring break '06. The trauma of that horrid "I'm not coming home" phone call can still just rip my heart out. Spring break is coming up and our happy little family is going on vacation. Anniversaries of any event are always traumatic. Early on I told myself I'd give it a year and guess what is almost up? It was a flexible year but I don't want it to become a flexible 5, then 10 years. I deserve better but I want spouse. Funny how we do that ain't it?

Just talking to me helps! All of your answers are "good"
Gee, I haven't seen OW in over a week, I hardly know how to act! My only chance this week is Friday when I pick DD up from school. Well at least there is something exciting to look forward to.

Announcement: Our new refrigerator was scheduled to be delivered today but delivery had to be postponed until some human was home to accept responsibility. Let us not forget that this new REFER is NOT a bottom freezer because "when we get old we won't be able to bend over and reach in"

Announcement #2: There was no email correspondence sent from our home last night WHILE I was present. There was quite a bit of curt, surly, sullen, rudeness...but no emailing. brrrrrr it got cold in here. "Act as if"...

Stubborn, I had no idea whether you were ready to walk or not, the rollercoaster has its dips. I do believe that leaving should not be done as a tactic though. When we leave it should be because that is what we have to do for us, end of story! You mentioned your Db coach telling you to crank her engine a bit re leaving etc. You are the second person who has reported the DB coach said such things. I'm kind of confused here, aren't we supposed to sit at home acting "as if", trying new ways to connect and make ourselves better through GAL? Just waiting for the A to run its course. What's with all this Jihad talk towards the wayward S now from DB coaches? I'm now wondering, am I being a weinie by not speaking up when she leaves to see OW? She knows I disapprove but how the heck would giving her a hard time make that situation any different? I'm missing something.

I understand your confusion. She (DB coach) actually tells me both in the same conversation: "act as if" and "kick her ass and say so what? Too damned bad!" I can only presume that the purpose is to make clear that this is a temporary situation, not going to be tolerated forever, and "act as if" shows how enticing you are and that you have not given up, or written spouse off. I know I worry that my spouse will decide I have given up. I had an opportunity to clarify my position the other night:

spouse asked me if I would be "happier" if she left. I said "no" and she asked how I knew that? Had to think but I came up with "I don't know, I believe" Then I said I wanted to make it clear that my desires have not changed one iota. I don't get/make that opportunity often.