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Well, this paragraph seems to get at the heart of the matter so I'm going to chime in on this.

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Lastly, she told me that she doesn’t love me and doesn’t know if she ever will again. This is the bottom line; more important then the OM or anything else I think.

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Yes. Both you and your wife have to grow. You both base much of what you do way too much on how you feel, and you both need some time and space (yes, you do even though you feel driven towards her) to chill out. The problem is that you're panicking and are worried something bad will happen any minute now, and that's driving your behavior, which will most likely back her into a corner and virtually insure something bad will happen. Something to consider.

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I wanted to tell her that love is a choice and she can choose to love me – but I knew that wouldn’t sway her.

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Then take your own advice, dude! If love is a choice, then you can choose to love her by respecting her request for space and no pressure. You can't expect her to be blown away by your love for her if you can't respect her wishes.

Besides, trying to argue her into loving you with logic would be like trying to convince someone who gags and chokes when they eat liver that they really love liver, it's the best thing ever. They may choose to eat it, may be forced to eat it, but they're just going to resent the person forcing them to eat it. That's probably how she looks at it. I know that's how my W looked at it with me.

So I ended up doing something that actually worked. I left her alone to the degree she wanted me to. I stopped talking about how I knew I really needed to GAL and I just did it. Stopped talking about how I knew I really needed to detach, and just did it.

Kirby, you've been at this a while now and you know what you have to do. There is no magic here. You have to start over from the ground up by being her friend, or just being friendly, and that's all, until she's ready. The longer it takes you to do that, the longer this process will take, and the more complicated it will get.

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She hates to do anything, like go on a ‘date’ with me, because she doesn’t want to mislead me and doesn’t want me to have expectations.

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Exactly. So if you want to make progress you have to give up those expectations, don't even hint at that stuff for a long time so that she will feel comfortable going with you. This is the really hard part but you're going to have to cowboy up and just do it. There's no guarantee it will pay off exactly like you want it to, but it's your best shot.

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She will go to a movie with me, but we can’t call it a date.

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Again, you're starting over as friends. She's not interested in the old Kirby because there were things about the old Kirby that she didn't care for. The new Kirby has to get rid of that negative stuff. It will take a long time for her to begin to trust in that again because she will just think you're doing it for the short term just to get what you want from her. But she doesn't want that and won't respond to it.

Until you back off, she will only see the negative stuff because it will overshadow all the good. I can almost guarantee you that IF things warm up between you two it won't suddenly happen, won't go from below freezing to 100 degrees overnight. It will warm up one degree per day.

This just doesn't happen in an instant. It will take a long time. But it can happen if you don't derail the process.

My W and I had some really good times over the holidays together. Something I didn't think would ever happen again back in July when we were at our lowest point. I think it only happened because she was willing and I was able to turn loose.

I say that because your wife is willing to go do things with you. She's there. She's in the game. She just isn't going to make things harder on herself by allowing you to think that just because she's going to the movies with you, she's interested in anything more. I know it hurts, man, I've been there.

But you've got to get over it for yourself. We've been singing this song to you for weeks upon weeks now. You're still stalking her emotionally. Deep down, though, you don't want to be held hostage to her emotionally for the rest of your life any more than she does.

Imagine how it would feel to live the rest of your life on pins and needles wondering if she's happy, if she's cheating or considering it, and worrying over it every day, letting it eat at you from the inside out. You don't want that, not really. You want to be free from that.

THAT should be your focus right now.

Thanks Concerned,
Did you read Lillypad's post to me? What do you think? I think you both are right. I can be piecing but still slow down, learn patience, and give her space. I think I'll have to feel my way through this and try to avoid my bad habit of wanting to talk and fix too much.

You are so rigth about the trust issue. When my wife first came back, she lied to herself and me. She wanted our R to work, and she said all the right things. She couldn't keep it up though, and she pulled away. I believed her at first, and it hurts almost as much that she's pulled away this time as it did when she left. I find it hard to trust anything positive that I see. We've talked about this, and I've asked and she's agreed, to only do what she wants to do. If she is nice to me, if I see something positive, I will try to accept it as real. I want to ask point blank if the A is completely over. That might help with trust, but I know I would always wonder if it has started up again. She isn't willing to play the part where she tells me everything and reassures me constantly, so I'll have to manage these feeling myself.

And that's what you told me, and that's what I understand the MC telling me, that I have to manage my own issues. They aren't hers, she can't and won't help me with them.

As I mentioned a post or 2 ago, I think I'm getting addicted to this place. I think I may be enjoying my pain a little bit. I think I need to look into that. Self pity is OK for a little while, martyrdom can be fun (up until they set fire to the stake), but neither is healthy way to live. Maybe this is part of what Lilypad is saying. I've been relying on the support I've gotten here. I'm glad everyone was here to help me, and will be here when I need it. I'll try to return the favor to newcomers and others when I can. And, I'll try to stop obsessing, which means breaking my NEED to post and see responses.

Thanks again, CL, and Happy new year. I hope you are doing well.

Good to hear from you again TL,
Glad to hear your Christmas was good. I just finished posting about how I think I'm starting to like my pain too much and getting too addicted to this site. I'll take your and my own advise and get busy with it.

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Imagine how it would feel to live the rest of your life on pins and needles wondering if she's happy, if she's cheating or considering it, and worrying over it every day, letting it eat at you from the inside out. You don't want that, not really. You want to be free from that.

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I was just thinking about this. How could I stay married to her if I feel for the rest of my life that any mistake I make she might leave me. I can't live that way. She can't live in the R the way it was.

Yes, I am stalking her emotionally. I'll stop.

thanks again for giving advise TL. Happy New Year.

Kirby,
Are you ready to set some goals for yourself? There comes a point where ruminating over the same thing is no longer productive. I keep a weekly planner, and list my five personal goals that will help me to be a better person and influence the R in a positive way. They help keep me anchored. I revise them as needed, and change the actions I will take to meet the goals as the situation changes or based on new information or perspective. They are 1) learn/practice sexual skills, 2)promote positive communication, 3) perform helpful behaviors, 4) engage in joint and my own social/recreational activities, and 5) accept and work-thru conflict.

I also list the actions I will take to meet these goals, and list what went well or what went wrong during the week.

Concerned_Listener

I think this is great advice you got and you are so blessed to be getting such good advice. I personally used to live like this everyday for a while in my m and when the bomb dropped and my world seemed to fall apart . I realized thru much trial and error that this was no way to live worrying sooooooooooo much when he was going to let me down again and just waiting for it instead of me geting my hands dirty and putting forth change and getting involved. When you are feeling like this you feel like you are worrying about the R when in essence you are not doing a damn thing to help it you are stalled and living in fear and not participating,, Trust me I did this for far too long. It got me nowhere and never helped/allowed my H to feel loved or cherished.Imagine how they must feel if they feel like all they do is let you down and give you no joy just pain and worry?
There was simply no joy, I was scared all the time and could not enjoy what was right in front of me.
.... when you let go off all ( or as much as you possibly can) of that fear it feels so freeing and it feels good to be alive. Take your time as this will not happen overnite,, just work on you little by little and not only will you change, but the World around you as well.
Best wishes to you on your Journey to find yourself and growing and become a better human being.
God bless...

Hey C_L - I like #1

Wish my H would put that on HIS list

I've been setting some goals, and tried to be specific. You've got a slightly different take on this then I did. My goals have been for personal improvement. I didn't think I could do much for the R if I was LRT. I like your ideas though, especially keeping track of what went wrong and what went well.

I've got to say, I'm really jealous of your first goal. Right now, just a friendly hand on my shoulder from W would be welcome. I can only dream when ML will be on my list.

I know where you are coming from Kirby - they say you don't forget but its been soooooooooo long since we ML that I don't know if I would know how to respond. I do know that I would/will feel very weird and awkward - like it was the first time together. In a way, I look forward to it but on the other hand, it scares the living crap out of me

Dear K,

I'm back. S20 broke his wrist badly--needs to have surgery, so the trip was cut short. But all kids and H were troopers.

Just reading your posts and some replies. Let me sum up with a few phrases that say it all: Slow Down and Relax some. BACK OFF big time. This is NOT the same as LRT as I understand YOU mean it to be....but big time detaching and backing off ALL R talks and expectations would be great. Same with om (who????) (what OM???).

Lower the expectations for now. Give yourself your own idea about how long you can take it, and make it easier on yourself, a little, by backing off all expectations. If you can just co-parent lovingly, and be a friendly companion to your W....let that build a bit on itself as NO MATTER what happens, that kind of bonding and civility can only help you. More important, the chance that she can allow herself, unpressured, to see that what she loved about you once, is still there, underneath the pain and anger you both have. There is love....as far as your W being nice to you and what that means, frankly I don't see how it can mean anything bad...Think about it. and see how negative you can get when even her loving attitude gets questioned and changed into something bad....back off sweetheart. Let her wonder what life will be like with you IF she is loving and kind, let her see how you are loving to her, how YOU"VE CHANGED and how you want to have a good R with her even if it's only as friends/co-parents......as a mother I am telling you no way can she NOT be affected by seeing you lovingly father your children. So what if that's why she came back?

And if H had asked me any number of "bad" days, whether I loved him, I cannot say what I've had answered with. I was really angry and at times thought I hated him....so there. Hey, truth be told, you've had those thoughts too. And recall what I said about my "om" in that even when attracted to another man, or unhappy in the M with my own H, due to his neglect mainly and the stuff that happens in marriages anyway (we have had problems that belong to ME, but the neglect is pretty much a pattern for H and I can tell you more if you think it'll help, but let's stay on YOU---meaining, sometimes I think my sitch is some small ways is like your wife MIGHT feel, and I want to reassure you, but cannot tell if it helps) even with all that, I STILL wanted to see if H could/would change into who I fell in love with, IF that man really existed. I can say now, that parts of that man did and do exist. I hope it's enough. Knowing at least some of it was "real" helps me know that my M was not a "sham" or ffantasy I made up, etc.


So, tell me why your LRT calls for such coldness? How likely is that to help you convince your wife you do forgive her, that she IS lovable and that your M CAN work? What changes are you trying to convince her You have made? And btw, as far as not listening to your wife, don't you think she has a point? Are you still not listening by reacting this way to what she is saying she needs now? As far as taking care of your mother, whom YOU admit is difficult, well.....let me get this straight. You somehow thought your Wife didn't need a job that would pay her money, make her feel good about herself, put her around people who might give her positive feedback, a sense of self, a sense of a professional future and career, adult interaction.....etc....BUT she WOULD like to take care of a MIL, who is "crazy" and "difficult" and critical and pays nothing and gives your wife no break....and somehow you fear that her wanting to have a job is about you, and what you might lose, etc. Sorry, maybe she wants independence and with it, to leave you. Maybe so. But if that is what she wants, you cannot stop her AND in the meantime, you look selfish and petty to deny her a reasonable request about her own sanity and well being and future, and financial contribution to the family, btw. You seem a bit controlling on this issue, maybe even a lot.....But back to your mother and your wife getting the responsibility for the care of your mother, WOW that is HUGE SACRIFICE TO ASK OF YOUR WIFE, but I get the feeling she didn't feel "asked" much. And now you seem surprised she isn't thrilled with this lopsided relationship and job she got stuck with.....and you didn't KNOW this b/c it didn't occur to you????? Or she told you and you forgot??? Come on K, what spouse needs to be told this "offer" ain't so great? Your wife's feelings are NORMAL in my mind....anyhow, just some food for thought. More to come, but gotta go and take care of the man/child s20... I know there's lots more to the story. Here's another take on it.

So far, she has had an affair and so have you. She has taken care of your mother for some time and you havent and it's YOUR mom....she has not been "allowed" to get a job b/c you feel threatened.....you snoop even though she says not to do that.....K, you gotta listen to her and give her some respect. I can see how hurt you are, but you are being a tad unfair, don't you think? I mean, you really are not DBing and you are not doing as she asked and you are not listening or using common sense in some of your expectations....so, this isn't all about her. The good news is that to the extent this is about YOU, you can do something about it. That's a huge part of GAL...
j-

Welcome back J, sorry about your S's wrist. My S15 has broken his wrist twice, but both were clean and relatively easy on him. I hope your S's is OK.

J, I'm kind of shocked by some of the things you say in your post. I guess I was pretty upset and worried around and just after Christmas. Maybe I should re-read what I said.

Maybe I misunderstand LRT. I'll pull out the book and look at it again. Basically, in DR, there is a list of bulleted points and it says that if you fall into this sitch, begin LRT immediately. I fall into most of those points. I thought LRT meant no R talk, no tears, kindness but not going out of your way, GAL. Our MC is working on getting us to talk to each other. AH HA! I just realized, he's not saying we should talk about the R. Just learn to talk to each other. Maybe. Anyway, in piecing, my understanding is that I should be working on improving the R. LRT is stopping the negative, not working on the positive, right?

But, you are absolutely right, whatever stage I'm in or what I should do, I need to BACK OFF. Thanks.

Some things you said that I think are misunderstandings:

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she has not been "allowed" to get a job b/c you feel threatened

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I don't know where you got that idea. She loved her job for a few years, but her boss turned evil, and her job was high stress. She started to really hate it. I supported her, and told her that she should quit, work on her PhD, and not to worry, I could take care of the finances. She quit, but I think her job gave her alot of pride and enjoyment. She would be happier working, and she is looking for a job. I never felt threatened by her working.

Oh, I see, I said I was afraid if she got a job, she would leave me (did I say that?). Yes, I am, was afraid that she will leave me, and that she: is just waiting for the holidays to be over, or just waiting until she gets her Phd, or just waiting for the kids to be out of school, or just waiting until she has means to support herself, etc. My paranoia. It's not about her having a job so much as my fear of her leaving, which I'm getting under control.

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, WOW that is HUGE SACRIFICE TO ASK OF YOUR WIFE, but I get the feeling she didn't feel "asked" much. And now you seem surprised she isn't thrilled with this lopsided relationship and job she got stuck with.....and you didn't KNOW this b/c it didn't occur to you?????

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I don't think I gave enough information on the MIL issue. I never asked my wife to take care of my mom (taking care of, in this case, means talking to almost daily on the phone). I never expected W to do this (I guess I did expect her to be nice to my mom). My W has a problem with assuming everything is her responsibility. She also has a problem with not communicating. She took the responsibility of keeping my mom happy, and I let her (my bad). She told me that she wasn't happy doing it, after doing it for years, but she told me in a way I interpreted as just venting a little. I learned from this to listen differently to my W than I used to. I learned that I need to listen hard, ask for more information to find out how deep the issue is, to look for body language and other cues. I hope I get chances to practice this.

I would like you to go more in depth about why you think your sitch is similar to how my W feels. I'd love to understand her better (although I think I received some good advise a while ago about Not trying to understand).

Again, welcome back. And how are things going with you? Was it a productive trip and time spent together? Any decisions made? Any small or large changes? Did you have fun?