Quote: When she went off on me I told I would also like to have a wife with a tight ass too. Maybe I would like a blond, or someone with really long legs, whatever…. Yep, she did just as you are doing and pulled it right into HER FOO, not mine.
That is not FOO! That is any human reacting to being hurt by a hurtful comment. How do you think you would feel if during sex she said, " Well hmmmm Cobra I would really LIKE it if you got a penis enlargement done. I'm sure somewhere deep down it would hurt you in some way. Unless you really think you are allllll that. I don't mean to attack you just seem like a very mean spirited husband.
And no, I haven't followed up on the "better wife" comment. Seriously, I predict she will minimize it as the ravings of a lunatic, and attack me for trying to hold her to it. Oh sure, it might come out, but thinking I could discuss this with her in a calm manner is fantasy.
And from the “Brutal Honesty” thread:
At first, I thought, "what a great idea. Just say it, and keep saying it, until she gets it." And then, kind of like the theory/reality discussion, I realize that this will likely end up badly, putting even more distance between her and me. Yeah, she deserves to know that my mind is not necessarily with her right now, but finding a delicate way of putting it and just letting it just "set" (and not repeating it) would seem to me to be better than saying it over and over.
Can you see that every time you have a valid reason to push an issue with your wife that you rationalize another reason why there is no use in pushing? It seems to me that not only does your wife have you under her thumb and knows how to quell any objections from you, she even has you trained to avoid thoughts of objection in the first place.
Now you contemplate what it would be like to have an affair with another woman. I have two viewpoints on this – 1) It can be dangerous as Nopkins and others have advised, especially if you continue to cower behind her back. When she finds out she is going to lock you in a cell and throw away the key (not to mention beat you daily). 2) The idea of how wonderful it could be to have a loving wife might be a way of spurring your anger to then do something about your marriage. When reading Dr. Laura in the bookstore, your rising anger scared you so much that you had to put down the book. Why? What are you scared of? Are you afraid you might be tempted to say something to your wife and then you’d really be in trouble? What’s she gonna do? Not have sex with you?
You’ve read Schnarch. You know that NOTHING is going to happen until you are willing to enter the crucible, make the decision to PUSH your wife into the crucible with you, then turn up the heat until the mix starts to change. You relationship is SOOO lopsided and out of balance, I think ANY change will be to your benefit. It is hard for me to see how it could get more one-sided so I don’t see how you have much to loose.
What will it take to change the mix? I think it will take a certain honest resolve on your part that the marriage is over and you are ready to walk. Only then will you feel like you can afford to confront her and regain your power. Right now I see you hiding behind 1) concern for your kids should you divorce (and I agree this is a legitimate concern), 2) desire not to get into a fight which could harm the kids (another legitimate concern), 3) preconception that you cannot change her mind so why try. IMO, as legitimate as all these might be, they are still excuses and deflections to avoid your fears (which I also think are legitimate but which you must face nonetheless).
The crucible can be scary. We’ve all been there before. But you have experience being there yourself. You even say:
I think there is some truth to this. Somewhat similar is the way she kind of gets loving and touchy/feely when I basically show no interest in her.
I seem to recall a few other times when this sort of thing occurred. So when you get angry and call her out on her sh*t, she straightens up and actually acts civil. I don’t understand why you wouldn’t be doing as much of this as possible. Do you think she feels bad when you treat her this way or do YOU feel bad?
Blackfoot made a simple but relevant observation to me a while back. He noted that when my W and I get into a fight, afterward things get better. The fighting and arguing seem to be a form of communication that meets some of W’s needs, even though I dread the fight itself. Blackfoot noted that I should not avoid these fights or even get anxious over them because she has yet to leave over them and things get better.
Sure, in a relationship like yours, things will probably get much worse before they get better. But I don’t know if there is any other way to get to “better” without going through the “worse.” If you want to avoid the “worse” then you will have to be content living with “mediocre” instead.
Let me put the story straight to set it in perspective. My W has a major problem with her body image. She does not like her stomach after having 3 kids. I can understand that but I do not like the fact that she does not like to take her shirt off during sex. So when I did get her shirt off, I told her I wouldn’t mind paying for her to have a tummy tuck (which she had once said she would like) but I also told her I would like it if at the same time she got a boob job too. I stand by that remark.
If she says I should get a penis enlargement, then fine, I will have an issue to deal with. But the reason for my remark is more than just a boob job. I know how she feels about that, She has said many times she does not agree with women having them. Fine. I still like them.
When she got mad at me later, she was not honest about why she was mad. That is when I threw out the comment of a tight ass. I have lived many years with this woman telling me I should not like the things I like and that I should change my likes to something more akin to hers. Over the past year or so I have come to learn that is not the thing for a man to do. Furthermore, I should have no guilt over expressing my likes. I did not say it in a derogatory or belittling manner. I said it matter-of-factly as something I would like.
And while I’m at it, I’ll tell you something else that happened a few weeks ago. Maybe this will help Hairdog and Rigley. W and I were arguing over something lingering from the boob job argument, I can’t remember exactly what, but I think it had to do with her withdrawing again. She was going on about my side of the family and how we argue and get mad with each other (well, mainly my mom does). She has brought this up MANY times before, saying that her family does not do this, treat people this way, are better because of it. It then occurred to me that her family’s way was not better at all. I told her that maybe they don’t get in each other’s face and call names. Instead they turn to some kind of chemical addiction (alcohol) and because of it, the family split and two members died from it (mother and older son died drinking and driving). I told her that her way was no better, that even though my family is dysfunctional, at least they are still alive. She got choked up and told me I had no right to speak like that of her family. I told her that I had every right to speak that way because it was her family which was partly responsible for our problems.
I know now and knew at the time this was a harsh thing to say. In fact I had avoided it out of respect for her. But there was also a very good reason that I knew I HAD to say this. Her argument was just another defense mechanism, a self imposed reason to keep another wall between us. As long as I allow that wall to remain there, I am partially complicit in keeping us emotionally distant. That wall had to come down and I had an opportunity to do so. I took that opportunity and I do not regret it. I think she may have woken up a little and realized that some of her old ways of thinking were a little grandiose. At least that is what good I hope came of it. Since that time, we have been getting along well.
As a little more background, leading up to Christmas, things were going very well too. After Christmas, I took the kids to see my family for an overnight trip. It was after we got back that she seemed a little distant. That distance continued until a few weeks ago when we had the latest argument. I think she was feeling left out, just as she did after we went to Hawaii. But that also had a lot to do with her issues. I will continue to take trips with the kids. I see no reason to make them miss out because W wants to be standoffish. So if she feels left out, and then becomes distant with me, I will confront her on it.
So Hairdog and Rigley, arguments do NOT always mean things will get worse. It is important that you end up the argument by tying things together and making it very clear that the reason you are arguing is that you are fighting for HER.
Cobra- I just had a post to you that I deleted. I just wrote and posted and after re-reading it, I decided it sounded harsher than I even intended.
Basically, what I want to say to you is that I see you as a bulldozer who will keep pushing until you get what you want. If you don't get a negative reaction from your W, you take that as an affirmation that you're doing the right thing, and so you keep pushing. If you do get a negative reaction from your W, then it's her FOO getting in the way, and still you keep pushing. It doesn't surprise me one bit that your W has walls. When you think about the kind of person you want to be, don't kind, compassionate, caring make the list? Try a little tenderness Cobra, even if doesn't get you what you want. Maybe you shoudn't be willing to pay such a high price to get your way.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Cobra: Thanks for taking the time to reply and for analyzing some of the interactions, etc.
Quote: every time you have a valid reason to push an issue with your wife that you rationalize another reason why there is no use in pushing? It seems to me that not only does your wife have you under her thumb and knows how to quell any objections from you, she even has you trained to avoid thoughts of objection in the first place.
You know, I recall my first ever meeting with a therapist, back when I was married to my ex. After outlining some of my problems to her (which didn't have to do with a SSM, but which did have to do with a power imbalance), she said the same thing to me. Basically, "you seem to predict every reaction your W would have to anything you might say to her. First of all, you're not omniscient. You can't know for sure how she will react. Second, you're using her expected reaction as reasons why you shouldn't bother approaching her about the problem."
And, for those of you who might be raising your eyebrows right now, yes, I'm working with my current therapist to figure out why I seem to keep putting myself in this position.
Cobra, I agree that much of my reluctance to confront her on much of anything is a deflection, an avoidance, partially because of the fears you mention. Some of it is this feeling that, hey, we're getting along right now (e.g. not arguing), so why spoil the détente with something that I know (prediction) will cause conflict?
I wrote a post to you which I lost. I have had the "boob job" convo with my ex - more than once. It became a mantra in my head when we had sex. It is still in the back of my head even in a new R - not all the time but sometimes. I will tell you that any time you comment negatively on a physical feature of someone who you purport to love you minimize your credibility as someone who "loves" them. We're not talking about encouraging someone to lose 10 pounds here - that is something that can be changed under someone's own power. We are talking about a defining personal feature. What if she had cancer and had to get a double mastectomy? Reconstruction is possible but they sure don't look the same.
I know you disagree but I think you owe her an apology for that comment, I think you should be taking off her blouse and kissing those too small breasts and the tummy made slack from having YOUR kids and celebrating the woman that she IS. OTOH - if SHE wants plastic surgery then by all means - support it.
Hairdog - sorry for the hijack. Couldn't let it go as I have had personal experience with it.
I agree with the others, cobra. The boob comment was over the top. You can practice that type of "honesty" when discussing recipes, her decorating style, even her singing voice--e.g., I'd like you to have cooking/singing/decorating lessons. But to make a comment like that about her body and for pete's sake WHILE having sex is inexcusable and anyone would be hurt and upset by it. Don't pull that FOO crap out on this topic. You are dead wrong about this, so own up to it, learn, and move on.
The fact that such a comment wouldn't bother you (which I doubt, but that's neither here nor there) doesn't negate or invalidate the fact that it DID bother her. That in and of itself is reason enough for you to apologize. That's the 5 in you-- thinking that logic will justify/solve anything.
The boob comment was not taken as you intended it to be taken and is something I would never do or say. I think you should not give her suggestions or tell her what you would rather have.
Some things are too personal and can be talked about it the individual with the condition, equipment brings it up.
BB has one and a half breasts due to breast cancer. No comments from me other than I still tell her caressing either one turns me on. Then I show her my erection, and say "the penis doesn't lie."
BB is over weight but she does things to try to lose weight. No comments from me about her weight. I mostly say what I still see that I like and she is 65.
Additional comment to Karen1, What you have is what you have. I think it is good with many guys . Just encouraging you to drop what your X said about bigger breasts, if I read one of your posts correctly. Some guys don't know when they have it good. They are clueless.
Opinions based on faulty information is worthless. Garbage in, garbage out, IFYKWIM.
How do you think you would feel if during sex she said, " Well hmmmm Cobra I would really LIKE it if you got a penis enlargement done. I'm sure somewhere deep down it would hurt you in some way. Unless you really think you are allllll that. I don't mean to attack you just seem like a very mean spirited husband. 
and say "the penis doesn't lie."