Quote: Interesting POV... so if your H were angry all the time, raging at everyone (not depressed, but openly raging), and put you down constantly, and twisted what you said and accused you of undermining him and stated he wanted a D, then if he were HD, YOU'D want to fcuk him?
First off, I should say that I don't think that this is a fair description of Rig's wife. As I stated in my post to Rig, I think her anger is a sign of her internal conflict between her unhealthy "need to be needed" and her healthy "want to be wanted". Therefore, I think that her anger in response to Rig's "neediness" is healthy even if it is misdirected. She should be angry at herself for giving in to her "need to be needed" in the past.
Secondly, as Rig himself has made clear, he is MORE sexually attracted to her now that she has angrily kicked his azz to the side of the road then he was when they were still enmeshed due to her "need to be needed". Therefore, she is IMO understandably angry because he is giving her the message "My sexual desire for you increases when you act like a b*tch and abandon me." and then he has the nerve to act like she's mean when she's doing exactly what he needs her to do in order to feel sexual. I empathize with her greatly.
Thirdly, Rig's wife did pretty much what Corri, the toughest LD person ever on this BB, has recommended. She made it clear that she wouldn't stay in a sexless marriage and she followed through on her boundary. She did this even though she had many valid "excuses" for not being able to do it. Think about it. The woman has never even had sex with another man. She must have a reserve of healthy self-esteem to be able to tell herself that "it isn't her fault" and believe that she would be able to function better sexually eventually in another relationship.
Quote: I'm sure she has a LOT to be angry about in her world, but does HD trump everything, even rude, disparaging, critical behavior?
NOT a rhetorical question... does it trump everything?
I hope Rig will pardon the hijack if I answer you here. Unhealthy High Sex Drive = Needing to Be Needed = Being a Rescuer = Wanting to Have Sex with Someone Who Doesn't Want to Have Sex with You - doesn't trump jacksh*t. Healthy high sex drive = Wanting to be Wanted = Taking Care of Yourself = Only Wanting to Have Sex with Someone Who Wants to Have Sex with You- does indeed trump everything, pretty much by definition.
However, you do make a valid point that a common feature of Unhealthy High Sex Drive is the obviously counter-productive behavior of trying to criticize, disparage or bully someone into having sex with you (The HD Type 8s seem to make this mistake most frequently, so I'm guessing Rig's wife is a Type 8). The point that you are missing, IMO, is that Rig's wife is no longer trying to have sex with him so she has made the first step in breaking out of this cycle. She is sort of balanced on a precipice. If she allows herself to be rescued by another man, she will fail to achieve personal growth. If she allows herself to rescue Rigley she will fail to achieve personal growth. If I could send her psychic messages of self-awareness that would alert her to the fact that she needs to figure out that her anger is misdirected in order to not repeat the same mistake in future relationships, I would. If I could think of something that Rig could say to her that would clue her in to this fact and not cause her to hit him over the head with whatever object was at hand, I would. All I can do is ask Rig to please not ask her to rescue him because my heart goes out to her if she does.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Thank you MJ for trying to give my wife a voice here. If I'm going to succeed, I need that reality check.
For the record, though my wife is mad at the word, she saves it mostly for me. To others, she is happy and free.
About my increased sex drive, I'd say it's part self esteem, and part not getting any, and NONE her being mean. The way she's treated me has significantly messed up my sex drive. I've tried many many times to get her into the sack and she's stiff armed me and I've given up.
But from her POV, you're probably right. She thinks I never initiated sex. And she may think I only want her now because I can't have her.
Quote: About my increased sex drive, I'd say it's part self esteem, and part not getting any, and NONE her being mean.
I didn't mean to imply that you are directly turned on by mean behavior. I think that you are turned on because you feel less controlled and I think that you feel less controlled because your wife is not acting like your Mom anymore because she has abandoned you. If she could learn to not act like your Mom but still tolerate your presence in her life than she wouldn't have to be mean to turn you on. Her "controlling" and "nice" behavior would become unlinked. I am being overly simplistic here but I hope you get my drift.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I just re-read your post a fifth time. You guys pack a lot in.
I think you're right about her having a healthy high sex drive. I think she's is ripe for being "rescued" by another man. And I hear you asking me to not ask her to rescue me. I'll keep that in the forefront of my thoughts. To avoid the appearance of looking like I want that, I really need to GAL.
Mojo, your POV in this sitch is very valuable in, as Rig said, giving a voice to his W. I agree that Rig's W getting in touch with her anger is very important and that it's something that he needs to do, too. But you may have missed that she's angry in general, not just at him. She's angry at the strict religious background, the way they came together, and at things in general. My perception of her is that she's SO angry that it has to be at more than just him and lack of SL.
But I think our exchange is very illuminating. The discussion is more interesting when we diagree.
It's true. Here's a short list of things she/we're angry about that really haven't been resolved.
Didn't get to date anyone, even to hold hands Weren't allowed to listen to the music everyone else was listening to She wasn't allowed to go to public school We didn't get to go to the prom or football games or parties We were constantly pushed to be perfect 24/7 with the ultimate goal of pleasing God We were taught ALL SORTS of fringe beliefs that made us much different even than conservative Christian groups We were given no resources for solving sexual problems...we were taught that everything was supposed to just work if we had remained pure...we did, and they didn't We were taught that psychology was tantamount to witchcraft and that the answer to all our problems was in prayer, reading the scripture, and spending time with others in our group We were taught than any type of sexual thoughts about anyone other than our current mate, even the thought of it, was the same as having sex with that person We were taught that masturbation was a sin
The list goes on and on and on.
And then there are our FOO issues: my no-touch, no-anger, no-romance, poor me family; her high pressure, be perfect family with a highly sexed and unfaithful father.
BUT, I have given her plenty of reasons to be mad at me. And out of all these things she's angry about, I am the easiest one to eliminate.
One more thing. Despite all the things I listed above, everyone ... EVERYONE has been completely surprised that we're having problems. Because we BOTH worked so freaking hard at having the appearance of having everything together, despite the extreme turmoil within each of us and between us.
OK...here's the anger we've been waiting for. I've felt like I couldn't be angry before because I was so ashamed of my sex issues.
Quote: BUT, I have given her plenty of reasons to be mad at me. And out of all these things she's angry about, I am the easiest one to eliminate.
You're also the handiest one to turn to.
I'm absolutely convinced that she doesn't want to eliminate you. She just doesn't want to feel like crap all the time.
She's breaking all the "laws" you two were raised with, and right now she probably doesn't see any way to get to a place where she/y'all can just live and be happy.
It's a good thing her rebellion is taking the form of anger instead of depression. Be steadfast and let her work through some of this. Don't get in the middle of her struggle with these issues. Be supportive in a neutral way without adding fuel to the fire.
Does she have anyone that she talks to besides this friend? Is the friend part of the religious group that y'all were raised in? Or is she outside of it?
You're also the handiest one to turn to...Does she have anyone that she talks to besides this friend? Is the friend part of the religious group that y'all were raised in? Or is she outside of it?
It's true... I am by far the best person to support her in the religious/upbringing part of this IF I can start dealing with it myself and stop feeling the need to be her shepherd (we were taught that it's the man's responsibility to lead the home and "cover" the wife -- very paternalistic).
Her friend was not part of this group. None of her friends had an upbringing even close. This has exacerbated the problem because when they get together and talk about growing up, she feels different and ashamed. I feel that way too. And it's not just when talking to friends. It's watching pratically any TV show or movie.
She IS definitely ahead of me in being angry about this ... I guess because she doesn't have to worry about the sex hangups I have. This summer, she got absolutely plastered at every party we went to. She was obviously trying to ease the pain, but just as obviously trying to recapture her lost youth -- the college drinking days. Our friends went along with it, but I could tell even their patience was wearing thin.
I, unfortunately, was even more confused than she was at the time, and made things worse by trying ever so slightly to reign her in.
I'm absolutely convinced that she doesn't want to eliminate you. She just doesn't want to feel like crap all the time.
I agree. And she wants a lot of sex. Which actually puts us in the same boat, as long as I can get past feeling like I'm constantly performing for her.
She's breaking all the "laws" you two were raised with, and right now she probably doesn't see any way to get to a place where she/y'all can just live and be happy.
Right. I know she's hoping that there's happiness in the future, but I think she'd settle for just not trying to be good all the time, and getting some of the pleasure out of the "bad" things she's abstained from.
It's a good thing her rebellion is taking the form of anger instead of depression.
It was depression and self loathing for a number of months. I went to IC for awhile, and then suggested she go. That was when she started focusing on our relationship, which is what I expected, and still think is good.
Be steadfast and let her work through some of this. Don't get in the middle of her struggle with these issues. Be supportive in a neutral way without adding fuel to the fire.
I really agree with this. She has complained to me over and over that I don't take her side. As hard as I tried to understand what she meant, it wasn't until recently (ok, yesterday) that I realized that I didn't have to jump on board with her and criticize everyone she was mad at, I just needed to NOT try to solve her problems. To listen, and echo her concerns, and help her feel good about herself.
Mojo, this more global than just a sex issue.
I agree, but I like hearing from you Mojo because you sound like her. Hearing the things you're saying helps me understand her better, and keeps me from lying to myself.
Funny
Yesterday, before the "I can take care of myself" email, she ended another email by telling me the DVD player wasn't working. She brought it up again today.
I think that she wants my help, and hates that she wants my help. I can kind of relate to this. I absolutely hate that I'm having to meal plan, deal with other mothers in RSVPing to birthday parties, etc., simply because my life was too freaking complex already. I don't WANT to learn how to do these things. I want her to do it because she enjoys it and she's so good at it. So it's easy for me to be mad at her that I have to now do these things in addition to everything else.
I also believe that she feels safe in getting angry at you because she knows you will never leave her. All the more reason to just let her work this out while you stand steadfastly by. At some point, y'all may be able to work on this together, but not yet.
It's kind of like a child throwing a tantrum. He feels safe in doing it because he knows his parents aren't going to throw him out in the street. Like IHJ's daughter getting her hair cut-- that shows that she really trusts her parents. I was a perfect child when I was young, because I was too scared to be anything else. Your W being angry with, at, and around you shows tremendous trust.
