ditto as to what TL said, for God's sake, things could be lots worse!! Our Christian mc, some years back when H first began the MLC, gave us that book to read. Just wanted to say that I found that book really helpful and IF you both have a spiritual path or belief system, the book is great. It is premised on that belief system however, it is not strickly secular. Fine with me, but thought you should know. And it helped for a couple years, and planted seeds i think are still there, somewhere. j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I am not the stick in the mud here but Kirby's hesitation about the communication classes is warranted, at least in my experience. If only one of them wants to communicate, just like if only one of them wants to save the marriage, those classes can end up making the "alienated" partner feel even more at odds.
In the end Kriby, that word of caution (and mainly caution about getting your expectations up) I agree that it's a good thing if she goes. Just don't push and see what happens.
I am SO encouraged by your progress. Your recent "ah ha" moment about your W caring the marriage saving load for years was one of those watershed moments that, sadly, many people don't ever get to. They are so wrapped up in their anger, pain and sense of entitlement that they can't really ever turn their focus inward and begin the search where they can actually do some good.
I am so glad for you because now, no matter what, you will be able to give this thing your best effort, knowing you are not just trying to undo the past, but grab ahold of a previously shrouded future.
Once upon a time your W believed in that future. She saw all the crap your marriage was full of and believe that with effort, mostly, if not all on her part, it could be better. She fought, in her own way, and it never worked. Now, through some pretty traumatic circumstances, you've been given a second chance to respond to the light of your marriage.
This is your chance to be changed in a very positive way by the power of your union, both good and bad power.
grasshoper, Talk about getting expectations up (or is it 'predicting' and setting up positive self fulfilling prophesies?), but despite my Ah Ha moment, I've already been back sliding. The Ah Ha comes, then the day to day reality, or a love song, or something else happens, and I have a moment of despair. I still have a lot of anger, pain and sense of entitlement. I'm feeling it, and battling it, this morning. I'm glad I can go to work and not show her my feelings right now. I'm thankful I have a place, here, where I can vent and get support.
I haven't told my wife my insight yet. I want to make sure I tell her for the right reasons and not in an attempt to get her back. I've scheduled a talk with her for Sunday. I may bring it up then, if it feels right.
The communications class was mixed and interesting. I don't want her to resent me for making her go. I've told her too often that we can quit. (Maybe we're not ready for this class. Maybe, if she commits to the R, we can take the class). But, also, as we learned in the class, I suffer from making negative assumptions about her actions. I can't read her mind. She has agreed to continue the class, so I should take that on face value and move ahead.
Patience, waiting, the whole zen thing of non action as action. Hard. What if there is something I should be doing right now and if I miss this chance, it'll be gone forever? What if she needs me to yell and scream and fight. All my life I've tried to be reasonable and logical. Maybe this is the time for me to act purely on emotion. I know it's not. I know what I'm doing, what you guys are helping me with, is the best approach for my kids, for me, and for my W. But I often doubt it, and that doubt is driven mainly by a strong desire to make things right and have the love I used to have.
There are so many positive signs. If I can have patience, this may turn out with our R restored and better than ever. It's hard to think that it may, will, take years. I need to stop thinking the positive signs are fake. Yes, she faked her feelings when she first asked to come back and the first week of her return. Could the teeny bit of affection she shows now be fake too? Could she still be acting out of a sense of duty and because she doesn’t want to hurt me any more?
That’s why I keep telling myself it could get much worse before it gets better. I don’t think I really understand, in my gut, just how little affection she has left for me and how much work I have to do. How to prepare for the worst but work for the best?
When I get tangled up in my thinking, I try to go back to what I know and what I can influence, instead of what I have no control over. I can work on me, on being a better person, father, and even husband. I can control my reactions, thoughts and feelings (to an extent). I can continue to work on patience, PMA, GAL. All these things help. I’m getting stronger every week. My kids continue to do well, with no outward signs of distress. I can have (most) of the things I hope for and dream of, even if she doesn’t join me. We go on living, breathing, going to work, doing the daily stuff. The mountains are still gorgeous, especially in the sunrise.
I’ve been using some tricks to help me cope. I’ve a small “Office Voodoo” doll that I carry in my pocket. When I felt like holding my W, I’d touch the doll. It actually helped. It allowed me to give her more space. I’ve pretty much stopped doing that, which I think is a good sign. I’ve also stayed logged in here for hours and hours, looking for help, support, understanding. I’m starting to cut down on that too. I don’t punch the roof of my car nearly as often. I don’t cry nearly as much. I’m sleeping through the night, and I’ve stopped losing weight. And I’m feeling the need to give back some of the help I’ve received from GH, TL Rocco, Peter, 25yearsmic, and the rest. I don’t feel I know or understand enough to give advice as good as I’ve gotten, but I can give support to others.
That’s my morning rant for today. This will be a busy weekend for me and my family. I’m predicting a good weekend. I’ll keep DBing. Thanks again.
M45, W4,S15, D10,
Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06
current thread
Quote: What if there is something I should be doing right now and if I miss this chance, it'll be gone forever?
I wouldn't expend too much energy on this. I understand this fear. I had it, too. You'll be battling that for a while most likely, but it IS a battle you can win.
I eventually came to realize that it just really doesn't work like that. You and your wife interact daily so the real concern ought to be making every interaction a positive experience, and the best guarantee you have of that is doing all the DB stuff like continuing your detachment, PMA, etc.
We tend to think in terms of significant, memorable events. We remember Doug Flutie's hail mary pass when he was playing for Boston College but don't usually spend a lot of time thinking about all of the hours, days, weeks, months, and years he spent playing, practicing, etc.
And, looking back at mistakes we've made, we think, "If only I'd have done X/Y/Z at that time", etc.
I DO think there are moments we need to take advantage of, be fully engaged in, but, really, your W will be most impacted by what she sees you doing day in, day out...how you handle yourself being one of the biggest impacts you can have.
I think you're doing great and will keep doing better...it's a process that feeds itself...sort of like "you are what you eat"...the more constructively you act, the more constructive the process will become, etc.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
Yes, she's working on the marriage, she's being polite. What do I make of all that? She just called and asked if I'd like her to buy the Christmas gift I'd decided on for my mother. I know that she doesn't like my mom. I know this is the type of thing she always took care of for us before. I was planning on taking care of this myself. I said that she could buy it, but she didn't have to. I didnt' want to refuse her favor, as she might find that insulting. But I don't want her doing things that she doesn't want to do, just because she thinks its the right thing to do. She's done too much of that.
Now, we seem to be good roommates, working on being good friends again. But that's what it felt like before she left. We were JUST roommates in many ways. Shouldn't we be trying to change that? I'm thinking that the difference now is that the problem is out in the open. Now we are working on it, going to MC. But it seems like a step backward, or at least not a big enough or fast enough step forward.
Patience. Faith.
M45, W4,S15, D10,
Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06
current thread
Quote: I didnt' want to refuse her favor, as she might find that insulting.
You done good. As long as she offers there's no harm in accepting. No one put a gun to her head and forced her to offer.
Quote: But I don't want her doing things that she doesn't want to do, just because she thinks its the right thing to do.
Well, anyone can do something because they feel like it; it takes maturity and character to WANT to do something BECAUSE it's the right thing to do.
Quote: But that's what it felt like before she left. We were JUST roommates in many ways. ...But it seems like a step backward,
Maybe. But think of it like on the way down you went through various stages and roomates was one of the last...so now that you're on the way back up, that's a sign of growth because you have to pass back through that stage.
That seems to be how it kinda works for me and my W.
Quote: or at least not a big enough or fast enough step forward.
It just doesn't happen on our schedule. We can do things to make it easier or more difficult, to make it as fast as possible or much slower, but it just doesn't happen on our timeline no matter what we do, think, or say.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
Quote: The Ah Ha comes, then the day to day reality, or a love song, or something else happens, and I have a moment of despair. I still have a lot of anger, pain and sense of entitlement. I'm feeling it, and battling it, this morning. I'm glad I can go to work and not show her my feelings right now. I'm thankful I have a place, here, where I can vent and get support.
We all feel this. Don't sweat it. The whole point of all this stuff is not to become Mr. Spock and feel no emotions, the point is to learn how to, and WHEN to properly express those emotions...or not.
Quote: I haven't told my wife my insight yet. I want to make sure I tell her for the right reasons and not in an attempt to get her back. I've scheduled a talk with her for Sunday. I may bring it up then, if it feels right.
In my opinion, it might be better to let the "talk" slide for now and get some more action under your belt. Let some more living occur, living with a more positive outlook and set of actions/reactions from you.
I just think that if your W is in any way like mine, and you are anything like me, then too much talking and not enough doing is a problem. I know every time we had a R talk it would beat my W back down and set us back.
I found out after things started getting better that she was VERY aware of my changes and that I was acting differently. She too suspected it was just a ploy but after time, when the changes seemed to be real to her, she softened up and she claims that is was indeed the way I handled everything that made the difference. She said that if I continued to pressure her, be angry, always "on" her about everything, always trying to talk things to death, she would have been gone.
Giving her time, space, and a reasonable alternative to the life she was SURE she wanted without me was key.
So, have the convo if it seems "right". Learning those "right" times is very important, but try to make sure it's really right, and not just right now.
Quote: But, also, as we learned in the class, I suffer from making negative assumptions about her actions. I can't read her mind. She has agreed to continue the class, so I should take that on face value and move ahead.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. The great thing about this is that she went, and found out that not only was she not attacked or made to feel bad, she found out that YOU had some issues that you needed to work on. It's an end-around maneuver to getting her to see what work you're doing without you telling her.
I think it's great that she said she'll keep going. One thing you CANNOT forget is that for your W, this whole process of learning more about herself started LONG before yours did. You are behind in this game. She may see this class as having value beyond your R, just like you should.
Please, for God's sake, stop telling her she can quit. It's like you're giving her permission or something. If she didn't want to be there, she's a big girl and she can tell you. Until she does, quit assuming you KNOW ANYTHING about her motivations, etc.
Quote: What if there is something I should be doing right now and if I miss this chance, it'll be gone forever?
Again, we ALL feel this MANY times in our sitches. I can only say that in my case, and in my experience, often what we FEEL like we should do would not make things better.
I know it's hard to reconcile that idea that you should FIGHT like hell for her, physically if need be, but the changes you need to make are both more subtle and powerful than that. Fighting for her, either by screaming or beating down the OM only shows that you can raise some momentary anger on her behalf but doesn't really go towards proving you're any more equipped to meet her needs as a partner.
I'm not saying there isn't EVER a place or time for that kind of thing, but much more often than not, it's not really useful, at least in the DBing grand scheme of things.
Quote: There are so many positive signs. If I can have patience, this may turn out with our R restored and better than ever. It's hard to think that it may, will, take years.
This leads to one of the most empowering thoughts you can have in all this; if you KNEW for a fact that your marriage would be BETTER than ever after going through this, would you want to do it, ALL of it? Would you want to detach, GAL, stop the R talk, give her space, etc, etc, etc?
Is it worth it?
No, sadly you CAN'T know it will all work out, but sometimes the chicken has to come before the egg.
Quote: That’s why I keep telling myself it could get much worse before it gets better. I don’t think I really understand, in my gut, just how little affection she has left for me and how much work I have to do. How to prepare for the worst but work for the best?
Detach, detach, detach. Stop letting momentary things, emotions, thoughts, actions, rule your life. Take what you have and run with it. Don't look back.
I think what you meant to say was "how do I deal with expecting the worst but just hoping for the best?"
My answer, of course, is stop expecting ANYTHING and just live for each moment, getting what you can from them and then going on towards the next one. If the worst happens, process it, deal with it and then move forward. Remember, what's already happened has been pretty bad so you've gotta be somewhat ready for more without even trying.
Quote: When I get tangled up in my thinking, I try to go back to what I know and what I can influence, instead of what I have no control over. I can work on me, on being a better person, father, and even husband. I can control my reactions, thoughts and feelings (to an extent). I can continue to work on patience, PMA, GAL. All these things help. I’m getting stronger every week. My kids continue to do well, with no outward signs of distress. I can have (most) of the things I hope for and dream of, even if she doesn’t join me. We go on living, breathing, going to work, doing the daily stuff. The mountains are still gorgeous, especially in the sunrise.
Nuff said. Perfect. If you can keep this kind of stuff at the forefront of your thoughts, you will do VERY well indeed!
Please do as the boys are telling you to do, stop the talk and just "do" the doing. Build on pleasant moments, especially when your W sees you with the kids. As a mother, seeing the interaction of the kids with H, their dad, is so touching to me, it is like emotional foreplay. No mother is unmoved.
Also know that there is no ONE sentence to say that will win her heart fully, no one event that ALL depends on. Just build up points in the "Pleasant company" category, and the "wonderful daddy" column too. Just build it up, without analysis. You won't be hurting her, you'll be doing a little "lifting". By "talking about the R" again, it's as if you are expecting immediate pay back, as in "did I do good? Is it enough yet? Do you love me again?" Too needy and too rushed. Let HER bring up R. This does not mean you cannot compliment her, or wink, or laugh at all her jokes. Just means don't expect fast results... you have to love her for the sake of loving her, not with your "wish" list.
good luck, have a peaceful, "playing with the kids" and "cookies for Santa" type of Christmas, (unless you are Jewish) and JUST BUILD on that for now.
just mho. j-
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
