LL, Just remember that your W will take everything and anything and turn it into whatever she wants it to be. "You aren't strong enough" blah blah blah. It is amazing the stuff they will come up with. So just take it for what it is and keep doing your DB thing. Make yourself happy and if she comes along... BONUS! You aren't alone in this boat, I've been bailing water a few years myself. Where the hell is the Coast Guard anyway?
It's been an up and down weekend here, with a Santa Lucia rehearsal yesterday and then (our biggest town) celebration today, in which both kids participated. W pleasant enough generally, but she had to be in the shed for a conversation yesterday and just had a short one on her cell phonse that could not talk on, just said ‘yup’ , ‘yup’, quietly. Me jealous – unsure of how to react. Do I show my feelings or stay nice? Shall I just not give a damn? I take some bitter pleasure in that the OM is presumably in Germany, and far away (I hope!), so they can’t be together and every night I sleep alone upstairs, so does she, downstairs.
She suggested that we should visit my parents this coming summer – amazing that she can even think we can stay together on the surface, but be separated in reality. What a way to live – dead inside and living a lie. It would be nice to see my folks and show them New York and Washington DC, but with her?
The problem does seem to be an EA to OM, but she also does want to maintain our exterior life, not entirely clear why, is it only the kids and house and nice situation and circle of friends? Isn’t that kind of everything, except for some attraction to me? At least with wanting to maintain a semblance of life together, we are together and I maybe have a chance?
A complicating factor in all this is that I would consider moving back to the States if we divorce, partly for job reasons, partly to be near my parents, partly to punish her by completely removing any support. Of course, the kids have to fit in somewhere too, and should not be hurt.
There is a note in the latest Atlantic monthly that married people live longer on average than divorced ones, so along with a possible divorce I will probably die earlier, wonderful. Do I reject any support, any ‘being nice’, from her? How do you treat a wayward spouse? Do I need to turn the other cheek yet again (that was the pastor’s advice when we got married).
Luke
ps. a marriage Coast Guard would be great to have - any suggestions on how to interview a marriage counselor?
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Today's questions - is a happy marriage between the two of us possible and is the effort involved worth it?
I've been trying to get a handle on the differences between my W and I, this to prepare for a counselling session. I anticipate that she will not want to go along, so some description of her will be necessary.
Do you think my wife, who might be described as 'dominant, territorial, competitive, a man in a woman's body, likes a fight" and myself, who might be described as "the person behind the leader, non-competitive, and territorial only when pushed, a natural conflict avoider" actually could be happily married? We were reasonably happily married a few years ago - I guess - but now something has changed and our personalities are maybe more expressed than before, so the answer here isn't necessarily yes.
is there something else that a counsellor might want to know and that I can prepare for? I've had a few DB sessions and prepared for them with organized questions and thoughts.
OnTheBeach - what do you look under in the phone book here in Sweden to find a marriage counselor? Do you have a recommendation? I live near Stockholm.
W at Swedish lessons - hope it doesn't come to where I suspect her every absence as being an opportunity for cheating -
Grayish and drizzly - thanks -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Luke, it appears to me that you are really making the personality differences a huge issue here. Not sure that is such a good idea. You got married knowing those traits, you dont have to be so much alike to make a marriage work. In fcat sometimes being opposites can be a huge help. You can learn from her and she can learn from you.
As far as the effort goes, that is a personal choice, you have come this far, I cant see why you wouldnt want to see it through. I believe that you have to stand your ground with your W some though. Set your personal boundaries with her, let her know what is unnaceptable to you. She will, in the long run respect you for standing up for your convictions if you so do this. You don't have to be harsh with it, you just have to be matter of fact. If you dont want to live a charade in your M, then just tell her so.
I am glad you are going to see a counselor, my recomendation to you is that you address the issue of communicating in a dominant/submissive marriage. Your counsellor can teach you how to take a bit of control back in your conversation without giving in to being harsh, which you are not comfortable with.
Just thought I'd chime in for you buddy, good luck with the cousellor hunting...
Luke, it appears to me that you are really making the personality differences a huge issue here. Not sure that is such a good idea. You got married knowing those traits, you dont have to be so much alike to make a marriage work. In fcat sometimes being opposites can be a huge help. You can learn from her and she can learn from you.
As far as the effort goes, that is a personal choice, you have come this far, I cant see why you wouldnt want to see it through. I believe that you have to stand your ground with your W some though. Set your personal boundaries with her, let her know what is unnaceptable to you. She will, in the long run respect you for standing up for your convictions if you so do this. You don't have to be harsh with it, you just have to be matter of fact. If you dont want to live a charade in your M, then just tell her so.
I am glad you are going to see a counselor, my recomendation to you is that you address the issue of communicating in a dominant/submissive marriage. Your counsellor can teach you how to take a bit of control back in your conversation without giving in to being harsh, which you are not comfortable with.
Just thought I'd chime in for you buddy, good luck with the cousellor hunting...
Yes, I think differences can be learned from and are a positive thing too - maybe the personality thing is only tangential to the real problem - "strength". Not sure how to pursue that one - maybe assertiveness training?
As for boundaries, are you suggesting that I say that I don't want to live a lie and therefore make the choice black and white for her? I certainly don't want to live a lie, but I don't want to push her away, yet, either. I did say during the bomb discussion that I would not take another lover while we are married, that that was counter to the wedding vows I took (which she made light of - "oh, that doesn't matter so much, it isn't serious").
How do the following stated boundaries sound?
o no phone calls from OM while I or the kids are around o minimize the lying - I have been much more tackturn and unhelpful today, while she tries to maintain a happy tone o the OM never comes into our house
What I don't like about this is that I have never acknowledged that an OM exists and so this talking about that seems an admission/acceptance of the situation. I could state this hypothetically "if you were to have another lover, then.. ", but still it feels like I am slipping a step back.
The core issue does seem to be strength (she had a boyfriend in high school, the football star, now dead, who once punched a car's windshield and broke it because they ogled her and him) - this limit setting, should I extend it to other things? Not something I am used to, with her.
Modulated gray evening sky, with some hidden, fading light above -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
I'd be very careful about using "boundaries" to dictate the behavior of another person. I think it's possible to use them to influence their behavior, but not to outright control them. Wasn't there a boundary (in your use of the word) in your marriage to begin with about not engaging in extramarital relationships?!? What makes you think that a boundary line of this sort will be respected now? Boundaries (in my understanding in this sort of sitch) are more about what you will subject yourself to. If you set a line at phone calls, what will you do at this point? It's a fine line between controlling and protecting yourself.
Also, by setting boundaries regarding OM contact and interactions, your are implicitly condoning the A. You don't, do you?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Thanks for your two very good points. I certainly don't want to condone the affair - at all, in any way - but I don't like her getting a call while in my daughter's room that she can't talk normally on, and then quickly channging the subject with my daughter afterward.
So limits are set by my actions - for example, walking out of the room when she gets such a call? I'd like to get some more respect from her, but am not sure how to do this. How does one set and enforce a limit on your spouse? Is that even possible? My vision of love was always a freely given thing, anyway, and so this is contrarian for me.
Night now, with amber colored lights on the other shore,
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
I think it's important that you state your wishes/feelings/opinions on this subject matter with your W. I don't think, however, that you want to turn this constructive, direct communication into ultimatum time, where either she conducts herself according to your wishes or you're going to impose some kind of consequences. Unless you are truly willing to live with the outcome of said consequences (meaning that you will follow through and be happy having made the changes you threaten). I think that you make some good, solid points about what you (plural) are exposing your child to, and while your wife may not be receptive to what you say (I would fully expect to be reacted to in a really defensive way - but that's my experience talking), it's your obligation to address issues involving the well-being of your children. You likely won't get her to change her opinions or consequent actions by talking about it - but you HAVE (in my opinion) done your part.
As far as limits (boundaries) go, I think it has more to do with how you are treated, and what you're willing to subject yourself to. If the abuse your spouse dishes out exceeds your limits, you walk away; spend some time away, etc. It's not a punishment; it's moving yourself to a safe place until it's safe to return. Beyond that, your spouse understands that you will not subject yourself to abusive treatment - which will empower them with the knowledge that they can keep you around more if they don't act in ways that disrespect you. These are not arbitrary feelings you have about how someone else conducts their lives, they are straightforward ideas about how you allow yourself to be treated by them. Difficult in this area (the whole affair thing often feels like emotional abuse - yet in actuality, it's us, the betrayed, that maintain the hurt, not them), because they (the cheaters) are conducting themselves in ways we don't approve of, yet it is not done to us. On the other hand, because of the contract we entered into with them, they are in fact doing something they shouldn't and should be accountable to us for. This is a difficult place to draw a line, because we feel righteous in our hurt and anger and want to make them behave appropriately. Yet the truth is that they are only accountable to themselves, as we are to ourselves.
So, set your boundaries for the purpose of regulating your environment with plans for how you will enforce these boundaries. You are a person that deserves respect. You determine the respect you get from others by what you give yourself. You demonstrate the respect you have for yourself by how you allow people to treat you - rather by the kind of treatment you will not accept from others. This often goes against being a "nice" guy. Being nice is often a product of the fear of rejection. You therefore will allow others to treat you however they want to because you don't want them to stop giving you their attention. It's a kind of masochism. Once you stop believing that you NEED their attention, you can learn to get what you want from another person without paying a price for it. That price is often your dignity and self respect.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Wow, thank you for your long post. That did make things a lot clearer.
The perverse part of this situation is that she is basically treating me nicely - friendly banter during our workday (we both work at home a lot), suggested we go to see a movie as a family tomorrow night, and visit my parents next summer. Part of me likes this - it certainly is better than an uncommunicative, cold war, which we've had before - but it is a lie, a mask over something rotten. I don't want to live a lie, and it doesn't seem fair to my parents and other people either.
Maybe the only solution is counseling, ideally for both of us. It seems to me that the core of our marriage needs fixing, not the topcoat, and that before we go through that, nothing can really improve.
Perhaps my 3 year celibacy will grind the OM down and OM will b---r off - here's hoping... I had given myself until Valentine's day next year to get this fixed (she left our bed on Feb. 6, 2004), but it is amazing how we hold on and delay.
Thanks a bunch again,
LL
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
