So the second honeymoon is over. It was bound to happen eventually. Mama is right to tell you not to beat yourself up.
Anyway, you're wrong about not having changed. In the past would your W have directly called you on it? Or would you have calmly listened to what she had to say?
You have every right to be unhappy and moody sometimes. Just don't let it dominate your life. You and your W have to learn to accept that occasionally we all just have an off day and are out and out grumps.
The bad days come with the good. In M you don't just get to pick the good days.
Yes, the second honeymoon is indeed over SS. Great way to put it, and it IS the way it feels.
Quote: Anyway, you're wrong about not having changed. In the past would your W have directly called you on it? Or would you have calmly listened to what she had to say?
Yes and no. She waited about as long to tell me directly about this issue as she would have in the past. The difference is that I didn't get AS defensive as I used to right away and then I actually calmed myself down with minimal defense after that.
So you're right, I have changed, which I knew I had but...
Quote: You have every right to be unhappy and moody sometimes. Just don't let it dominate your life. You and your W have to learn to accept that occasionally we all just have an off day and are out and out grumps.
It's NOT an exaggeration to say that I have been grumpy for weeks now and it has been especially bad on the weekends, the trigger for W in the past.
I agree, we both have to accept each other's off days but we don't have to accept a persistant mood, which I have been in for awhile now. I need to get to the root of that.
I don't think it has anything to do with the affair or any of that. I don't really know what it is. Well, that's not true, I DO know what it is and that's that I have started to live my life based on expectations again, something I have not done for months now.
I guess I thought it was "safe" to expect again. I guess I don't even read my own advice. Expectations have NO place in a marriage, or a family...at least the kind I build up. Sure, you can expect a certain type of good behavior from the kids and a certain level of respect/kindness/etc from your spouse but beyond that, expecting that they do very specific things, act very specific ways and in general, conform to your way of thinking, sets you up for disaster.
It lead to a LOT of the issues in my marriage and I am heading right back there again if I can't get a handle on this.
I am past beating myself up. I know what I need to do and I am going to do it. No trying about it. I am just going to quietly, confidently, address my issues. If I have to go back to my C, I will. If I have to re-read my anger books, I will. I will do what it takes. That I promise myself, and you all...and silently, my W and kids.
Sure, my W has a role in this. She has her moods, etc, but I am going to worry about me, addrss my stuff and see what happens.
I can do that for sure.
Thank you SS. Day by day, minute by minute, I WILL do this...again...sigh.
So what if you are in a bad mood sometimes? Just like you, your W needs to learn to detach from this and not reflect it or personalize it. Just like you, your W needs to make some changes and do some personal growth.
It is B.S. that you have not changed and you both know that. Call her on such extreme unhelpful B.S.: "W, I'm very sorry that you feel that way. I'm somewhat at a loss -- I know I have changed hugely, even though I am not always perfect and I still have a lot to work on. But, when you say that I have not changed at all, I feel unappreciated, blah blah blah..."
W needs to stop managing your feelings, and you need to stop managing hers.
Also, and this is a big also, you need to quit assuming the role of sole-fix-it guy in the M. Why not say to W: "W, thanks so much for helping me see where I still have some work to do. It is so easy to fall back into old patterns. Can we work together to try to create new ways of doing things and living? What ideas do you have about how we can change the household dynamics?"
Remember, you are *partners*. Acknowledge the problem -- get clear about what it really is, when it arises, what triggers it, etc... Brainstorm together about solutions.
Now, as for taking things out on your kids, WTH are you to use them as your emotional punching bag when you need release? Maybe you can literally get a real punching bag and hang it up in the basement for such times (not being sarcastic). What are some other alternatives that are quick, easy, and readily available for when you feel your temper rising? This is definitely a good, identifiable project for C.
"W, the words "always" and "never" seldom apply to the dynamics of our R, and especially with what we are going through now. It would really help me be less defensive and help our dialogue in general if we both try to avoid using them. This will really help our communication be more productive."
Quote: I guess I thought it was "safe" to expect again. I guess I don't even read my own advice. Expectations have NO place in a marriage, or a family...at least the kind I build up. Sure, you can expect a certain type of good behavior from the kids and a certain level of respect/kindness/etc from your spouse but beyond that, expecting that they do very specific things, act very specific ways and in general, conform to your way of thinking, sets you up for disaster.
I am waiting around for my H to do something, in other words EXPECTING him to want me and make me feel desired. (Insert gong sound now)
Wrong answer!! Especially since he may (or may not) be expecting the same thing from me.
So here we sit...and sit...and wait...and wait with neither one of us doing anything about it. How could I be so dumb?
I will follow OT's advice to you and show my H (if not tonight after work then definitely tommorw) how much I love him. As I sometimes say "Talk is cheap and beer costs money", don't really know what that means but it is time for action!!
P.S. The "what" of what is triggering these less than desirable patterns of behavior on your part is very important. My guess is that you are acting out anger toward your W somewhat passive/aggressively, anger that you don't even want to face. For instance, didn't you say she was in contact with OM again? Did you ever even acknowledge to yourself how angry that made you? Have you done anything to address it? Has anything happened in your M toward making progress that it won't happen again? If not, methinks it is time for you to be the invisible listener on a phone call she has to OM telling him in no uncertain terms that she will construe any further contact as harassment. It is time for her to step up make some changes that will improve the M as well, rather than to merely say what is not working for her -- patterns in which she is one of the two people both of whom must participate in the actions represented in that pattern for them to continue to occur.
For instance, if you are a crab with the kids, she can simply say: "Honey, you are being a crab with the kids, please take it out on something else someplace else. Maybe we can make progress on whatever it is that has crawled up your butt a bit later."
Again, it takes two to tango. As long as she keeps inviting you to dance, or you both kind of start swaying to the music without thinking, you are bound to slip up sometimes. Not an excuse, just a fact of imperfect human beings. Sure, it is something to work on, but being perfect would make life pretty empty, I think.
P.P.S. (So, this is my third post, lest you miss any, lol...)
Quote: If I have to go back to my C, I will.
Ahem, what gave you the idea that it was a good time to quit going when you are only at the very beginning of truly working out the problems that led to the difficulties in your M to begin with?
All of those problems are still there, and they will get increasingly bigger as your W becomes less willing to put up with stuff just because you were good enough to take her back. BTW, this last bit is a good thing, though it will make things seem harder for awhile. The last thing you need is for W to feel in your debt for the rest of your M. You'll find yourself wanting to keep her feeling that way out of fear she'll leave without it. It is not a good dynamic to rely upon for a false sense of security.
Am I wrong that there was communication with OM? If not, I want you to go drive around in your car and yell at the top of your lungs about how angry it made you, how much it hurt you, etc... Even if you think you were fine with it, just try it. It shouldn't be hard to do if there isn't any truth to it... If it is VERY hard to do, there is probably a lot of truth to it.
Thanks OT. Should have known you would be out there with big stick in hand. I needed that fur sure.
Quote: So what if you are in a bad mood sometimes? Just like you, your W needs to learn to detach from this and not reflect it or personalize it. Just like you, your W needs to make some changes and do some personal growth.
Yep. I agree. She has gotten better at this, but obviously doesn't have the "training" or terminology for it. I actually addressed this with her last night. (I didn't really get into detail about the things we said but I will now). When she said how she gets so stressed about my moods and trying to make sure things go "just right" for me, I told her that just like me having to learn that her being upset isn't always a result of me or something I did, she needs to learn that sometimes I need to just get my mood out of my system and not to fix me. I told her it was NOT about her over the past few weeks and NOT her fault things just didn't work out that I wanted to do. I may have taken it out on her and the kids and I was wrong for that but she could have just called me on that, directly, when it was happening...and I pointed out that the few times she did, I pretty much immediately snapped out of it. I asked her to just be direct with me instead of keeping it all bottled up.
She started to say how I used to get defensive when she did that...and I asked her if I got defensive recently when she called me on my "$hit". She tried to say yes but backed off. She agreed that it was much better than it used to be.
Quote: It is B.S. that you have not changed and you both know that. Call her on such extreme unhelpful B.S.: "W, I'm very sorry that you feel that way. I'm somewhat at a loss -- I know I have changed hugely, even though I am not always perfect and I still have a lot to work on. But, when you say that I have not changed at all, I feel unappreciated, blah blah blah..."
Actually OT, I did say somewhat this very thing to her. She listened but I don't think she agreed, and as I said, when it comes to the specific things she was mainly talking about (moodiness ALL the time and anger towards the kids) she was right. That said, for her to say I have not changed at all was wrong and I called her on that. She backed off on the blanket statement and instead focused on these two areas.
Quote: W needs to stop managing your feelings, and you need to stop managing hers.
You really helped me understand this and I think I began to weave it into my life until I stopped weaving. The tapestry is unfinished and that's on me. If anything, I have really stopped detaching, started trying to "manage" again and I think that may be why I am moody again. I am mirroring and if not that, I am reacting to every little sitch, every little emotion anyone in my family has. It's not good and I need to stop.
Quote:
Also, and this is a big also, you need to quit assuming the role of sole-fix-it guy in the M. Why not say to W: "W, thanks so much for helping me see where I still have some work to do. It is so easy to fall back into old patterns. Can we work together to try to create new ways of doing things and living? What ideas do you have about how we can change the household dynamics?"
Again, I did say something like this to W but it was more about S6's behavior and a little about mine. In short, I told her I thought we really needed to work more together, talk MUCH more about these issues so that they don't boil over again. She agreed.
When the convo was over, we both felt ok. When she came to bed. She snuggled up to me and I raised up, leaned over her and gave her a kiss. She smiled. We fell asleep holding each other.
Things are still ok, I guess I am just a perfectionist.
I know I have work to do, WE have work to do and I will get done. I am committed to that, and I think my W is too, especially after last night.
Quote: Remember, you are *partners*. Acknowledge the problem -- get clear about what it really is, when it arises, what triggers it, etc... Brainstorm together about solutions.
Yep. We need to do MUCH better at the partner part when it comes to problem solving. Thank you for pointing this out. We act more like two individuals trying to solve the issues apart rather than together.
Quote: Now, as for taking things out on your kids, WTH are you to use them as your emotional punching bag when you need release? Maybe you can literally get a real punching bag and hang it up in the basement for such times (not being sarcastic). What are some other alternatives that are quick, easy, and readily available for when you feel your temper rising? This is definitely a good, identifiable project for C.
Actually, it was THE major project for my C when I was seeing her. Sure, the marriage stuff got me there, but it became clear to C that my anger and intimacy issues needed to be addressed, in that order. We spent a long time working on anger management, etc. Maybe it's time to make a return to C because I HATE when I take things out on the kids. Sure, it's only yelling and general anger but I know that takes it's toll on them. It's showing and I don't like it one bit.
Quote: "W, the words "always" and "never" seldom apply to the dynamics of our R, and especially with what we are going through now. It would really help me be less defensive and help our dialogue in general if we both try to avoid using them. This will really help our communication be more productive."
Love this and will try to incorporate it next time we talk.
Thanks again OT. I know you have your hands full with shortimer and all. I appreciate your wisdom, especially right now.
Quote: P.S. The "what" of what is triggering these less than desirable patterns of behavior on your part is very important. My guess is that you are acting out anger toward your W somewhat passive/aggressively, anger that you don't even want to face.
Yes. You are right. I need to get to the source of this.
Quote: For instance, didn't you say she was in contact with OM again? Did you ever even acknowledge to yourself how angry that made you? Have you done anything to address it? Has anything happened in your M toward making progress that it won't happen again?
Yes, I did say that had happened but according to her, it was a message he left, not a conversation they had. I believed her, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence that there is ongoing communication. I could usually tell when that was going on.
As for expressing my anger about that, I think I did that pretty directly and clearly when she told me about it. As for what's been done to stop it from happening, well, she finally blocked him from calling her cell phone so I THINK that will take care of it unless she's lying about everything.
As far as him harassing her, she's said for a long time now that that's what he's doing. She said he's obsessed, or at least WAS obsessed. Personally, I think he THINKS he has something on her, like the sorrid details of their affair, etc.
Anyway, IF that is the root of all this, then I have farther to go than I thought. I don't think it is. I think it's much more related to my expectations about what we are going to do on the weekends, when I get home from work, etc.
See, we've been planning and getting ready for our Christmas party for the past week or two (strange, kinda the same time I have acted like a jerk) and time has been short for fun. I like fun. I tend to act like an a$$ when I think I am going to get to have fun with the boys/W and it doesn't work out. I take it out on them and that's not fair.
I need to grow up and understand that sometimes other things take priority. I knew that when I was doing better with DBing/seeing the C all the time. Now I think I got it all under control...and I'm wrong. Simple as that.
Quote: For instance, if you are a crab with the kids, she can simply say: "Honey, you are being a crab with the kids, please take it out on something else someplace else. Maybe we can make progress on whatever it is that has crawled up your butt a bit later."
This is exactly what I asked her to do. She said she'd try.
Quote: Again, it takes two to tango. As long as she keeps inviting you to dance, or you both kind of start swaying to the music without thinking, you are bound to slip up sometimes. Not an excuse, just a fact of imperfect human beings. Sure, it is something to work on, but being perfect would make life pretty empty, I think.
Ahem, what gave you the idea that it was a good time to quit going when you are only at the very beginning of truly working out the problems that led to the difficulties in your M to begin with?
Time and money. I suppose I will have plenty of the former if I don't do whatever it takes to get right, and the latter, well, I can work something out.
Quote: All of those problems are still there, and they will get increasingly bigger as your W becomes less willing to put up with stuff just because you were good enough to take her back. BTW, this last bit is a good thing, though it will make things seem harder for awhile. The last thing you need is for W to feel in your debt for the rest of your M. You'll find yourself wanting to keep her feeling that way out of fear she'll leave without it. It is not a good dynamic to rely upon for a false sense of security.
Thanks for this. It's a really good sentiment, one I will try to embrace. I knew this but you saying it really drives the point home.
I have been resting on my laurels in many ways and I can't afford that, not now, maybe not ever.
Quote:
Am I wrong that there was communication with OM? If not, I want you to go drive around in your car and yell at the top of your lungs about how angry it made you, how much it hurt you, etc... Even if you think you were fine with it, just try it. It shouldn't be hard to do if there isn't any truth to it... If it is VERY hard to do, there is probably a lot of truth to it.
I don't know if you were wrong, but I did already do similar things when it happened. I think I got it all out, but I will give it a good yell just for you!
