Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries Part 2

Hi Stilltryin, thanks again.

I was going to post later but I can't sleep anyway, so here goes. The MC basically suggested that we work out the terms of our S between us before it happens. So every single issue we need to hash out...oh that should be fun huh? She said she's seen people do "pretend we're single," "honor the terms of our M but not be together," etc.

We worked through some of it tonight, but we have a LOT more work to do. I found a site about "Controlled Separation" where you come to agreement on all the big issues and write up an informal "contract" with each other. I think that may work for us...we'll see. I'd rather have at least talked it all through than just wave goodbye and wonder what we're both thinking this S means. She thinks we should work most of it out on our own during scheduled meetings with each other (so we have "S talk times" and the rest we can just be ourselves), but come to her for the stuff we can't get through. Her biggest concern was making sure we put support systems in place that were agreeable to us both. We have some friends who are mutual but H is OK with me talking to, and we agreed on what we'll each tell our families and to NEVER badmouth each other. She thought it was funny because she said something about not badmouthing and we simultaneously answered "I could never do that, s/he's too good a person!" I also told her you guys are mostly my support right now and she felt that was good... to find places to vent outside of our mutual friends. I agree, you guys/gals are so important to me!!

This weekend I should have more time to catch up and provide more support to each of YOU, but I thank you all for your help in this crisis I've been having.

H sounded VERY down on our M but I reminded him that on Monday he had told me some positive things, and he said they were all true. The MC said the same, that when she met with him he sounded very down on it all but she thinks he has hope. He agreed but said he's tired of working on it and he's scared of giving me "false hope." Here's kind of where we are...

- It's on hold for the holidays. We'll tell our families as much as needed (i.e. so his sister doesn't give us some personalized DVD with love songs and a slide show), but logistics talks are off for now. Our next MC appt is early January. I'm not sure this is smart, but she said if we wanted or needed to come back sooner to call.

- To start, he'll live with a friend and I'll stay in the house. She also thinks he should pay half the mortgage but we're still working on the money questions. H is NOT pleased about this but agreed to the moving out, at least. He's suddenly "forgetting" that he paid the mortgage while I put equal $$ into home improvements and savings, and seems to think that he's been paying the mortgage while I got a free ride. Grr. Total history rewrite and the MC saw right through it. She asked me to find bank statements to prove it and H said "Don't bother, I won't fight about it, I just wanted to say it." She pulled me aside as we were leaving and told me to stand strong on this, the house/equity is 50% mine and don't let him walk all over me. He's almost implying that I'm trying to take "his" house from him, which really hurts. I'd never do that, it's OUR house. I agreed that we try it for a month or 2 or 3 and we can ALWAYS re-evaluate who's living where.

- He's willing to do yardwork and "handyman" stuff until we can find someone to do it. I think our neighbor kid's about to get rich on yardwork. I didn't suggest this, the MC did and H said he would do it "for awhile."

- He agreed to keep going to MC if I wanted to and said it was up to me. But then he added that he wanted to keep going too because it made it easier for us to talk, and he wanted to go again in January. (this surprised me!)

- I agreed to keep the hope and faith our M will work to be true to myself, BUT also agree to be open to the possibility it won't. In turn, H said he wants to "throw in the towel" but is open to the possibility of it working out and falling in love with me.

Lots of good news, I guess, but I feel like I want to just fall in a hole and disappear. Not so bad as Monday but not a lot better. The MC saw it and asked me if I wanted to cry for awhile... I said no but then used half a box of Kleenex I think.

On the way home H drove us around all the neat neighborhoods downtown with the big gorgeous houses and the Christmas lights and acted pretty cheerful. I did my best but I know he could hear me choking up a little sometimes.

Can someone pass me the fast forward button or at least the last page of this screenplay????

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Can someone pass me the fast forward button or at least the last page of this screenplay????

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Oh, amen, honey. A-freaking-men.

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I hope I am not there myself after the first of the year, but you are being VERY strong (even if it feels like you are not) and doing all the right things. Do NOT doubt yourself.

Thanks, believing!!

I know what you mean about the first of the year. I wonder how many people are just hanging on through the holidays. A friend of ours is a drug and alcohol counselor and she said she's amazed how busy they are on January 2 every year. Not to make you worry more...sorry!! Just a thought that crossed my mind on the way to work today.

I feel some journaling or rambling coming on… apologies in advance.

I almost feel like it's a mistake to delay the S, but on the other hand it gives me time to get things together and there’s always that little chance that H might change his mind. He said he thought about it all weekend and was unsure about if he really wanted to go through with it, but it's "done" now. I made it really clear that changing his mind is OK, not to be stubborn just because he said he'd do it.

I am trying SO hard not to doubt myself but wondering about my decision on the house again. I think it's going to turn things from relatively amicable to pretty bitter. He was all excited to help me find a place, promised he'd help move me in, help me buy all new stuff, make it as easy on me as possible, etc. but his whole mood changed when I said I wanted to stay in the house. He said "Well I'm not going to kick you out or something." The MC said she wasn't taking sides but if she got a vote, the burden should be more on him.

I did tell the MC I figured out I could afford to live there on my own and H was not happy. Just as I expected he might, H said "Maybe we shouldn't refinance." I told him that based on our convo the other day I already started the process and paid the application fee. He said he thought we were still deciding what to do and I reminded him he told me to go ahead with it - thankfully he DID remember saying that.

Then she said that I shouldn't have to pay the whole mortgage since it's an asset in BOTH our names. He really balked at the idea that he should help pay the mortgage if he's the one to move. We got into this whole argument about who's paid for what over the years, how he’s “done nothing but try to take care of” me all this time, how long I've been putting the equivalent of the mortgage payment into the home improvement “fund” (he said 3 years, it’s been 6), blah blah blah. The MC at first asked me to find statements to show it but H said not to bother.

H was not so pleased when she explained “Community Property” either. She said "Well, try looking at it like the courts will if you D - add up all the assets and split it down the middle. It doesn't matter who paid for what." She subtlely asked how many cars he has (truck, classic Mustang, 2 racecars and another classic mustang he's about to buy, fix up, and sell...it's probably $75k in cars alone). He got pretty quiet after that.

I think he hopes I'll just go on my way as if we never married, and let him keep everything without expecting any money in return, since he seems to think nearly everything is “his” and acts like I trapped him into the M. He’s implying that he wants me to keep the dog, my car, and our $3000 boat that’s broken and I have no way to tow, and that’s it. I’d go so far as saying I don’t really feel I’m owed half of our assets, but I’m sure as heck owed more than the dog, car, and broken boat. I don’t want to take advantage of him but give me a break!!! I should just stop even thinking about it because most of this won’t need to be decided unless we D, but it made me mad and I think it’s important that he see I won't be walked all over.

He also “remembers” (untrue) that he was the one who saved the down payment and initiated the house buying. Well, I guess you could say he made the down payment - but the REASON was so we could use the money I had saved to fix up the house. It needed a lot of work. He did most of the actual work which I feel kind of guilty about, but the MC pointed out that I supported him (cooked for him and the other guys, hardware store runs, beer runs, whatever). None of which REALLY matters I guess but I just want to feel I'm being fair. And again, something I need to just put out of my head unless we get to the point of a D.

I'm sure I'll change my mind 20 more times between now and our first logistics meeting, but I think I'm going to propose that we try 3 months of him staying w/his friend and me staying in the house, with him paying $500/mo or so to help cover the yard care, MC, any house repairs, etc. (and split any major house repairs that might come up). I'll pay the mortgage and other bills. At the 3 month point we can revisit, and possibly renegotiate. That gives him space and hopefully avoids costing us a fortune in case we do reconcile in that time, and it gives me time to figure out what I really want to do and whether staying in the house is realistic. I can also go through all my stuff, sort, and downsize in case I want to move later. Oh and we did agree that no matter what he'd have full access to the garage as long as he tells me first when he's going to be there, so I can decide to be there or not. The garage/driveway was pretty non-negotiable for him and I think it's fair.

This all just sucks… but thanks for being there and letting me get it all out here.

Nikki,

You are sounding pretty good, I know this is a very hard time.

You won't be helping yourself or your R by trying to keep H from getting mad at you over the S stuff. He will be mad at you anyway, and you will put yourself at a distinct disadvantage. He wants it to be as if you and all the responsibilities you represent are *poof* magically gone. ANY thing other than total freedom from all responsibilities is going to piss him off. Too bad.

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but I think I'm going to propose that we try 3 months of him staying w/his friend and me staying in the house, with him paying $500/mo or so to help cover the yard care, MC, any house repairs, etc. (and split any major house repairs that might come up). I'll pay the mortgage and other bills. At the 3 month point we can revisit, and possibly renegotiate. That gives him space and hopefully avoids costing us a fortune in case we do reconcile in that time, and it gives me time to figure out what I really want to do and whether staying in the house is realistic. I can also go through all my stuff, sort, and downsize in case I want to move later. Oh and we did agree that no matter what he'd have full access to the garage as long as he tells me first when he's going to be there, so I can decide to be there or not. The garage/driveway was pretty non-negotiable for him and I think it's fair.

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(1) If he puts $500 into the household, will that pretty much mean the household combined income is equally split? If not, you should probably be asking for more. Your MC's advice to try to divide assets as you would in a D is a good one. Don't put yourself at a disadvantage financially and legally by trying to keep H happy.

(2) Your H is not going to get MORE generous over time, but less. In 3 months, if you renegotiate, he will want to contribute less, at D, even less. He will start complaining bitterly about having to "pay" you, etc... This will happen no matter how reasonable you try to be.

(3) Giving H unlimited access to the garage is simply not healthy. What part of H's new private life are you going to have unlimited access to? He is LEAVING YOU, he is giving up his home. You need a safe space that is yours. I really urge you to put a more reasonable boundary in place. For instance, he should give your a reasonable amount of notice ahead of time. And, you should be able to say "no" and offer an alternate date/time within a week of the original request. It is really too bad that he will need to use the garage. I would also suggest a basic regular schedule so that you don't have to be negotiating this on a day to day basis. You might think it is a bright spot, but it will be an ordeal everytime, one that he will resent.

(4) How he spends his money isn't going to be any of your business when you are S. How you spend your money shouldn't be any of his. Decide on a division of the monthly income, then YOU make YOUR budget and let H make his own budget. Unmingle things as much as possible. For instance, don't try to get H to pay the lawn man. Instead, decide on a division of money that will let you pay the lawn man. If you decide to then start mowing to work out some of the stress in your life and spend the money on pedicures, it isn't any of H's business. If he decides to keep mooching off friends and spend all his money on strippers, it isn't any of your business. As few business ties as possible made to be as simple as possible is the best route to avoid having his resentment on these issues totally poison your R and destroy chances of reconciliation. (No, you can't avoid this by rolling over and asking for nothing but the dog and a box of crackers. It really will not help, short-term or long-term.)

(5) With the false hope crap, probably the best thing to do is to tell him: "H, I am an adult and I am responsible for my own emotional welfare. I will be happy one way or another. If we both at some point decide reconciling is something we want to take a look at, that is great. But we are BOTH free to change our minds without blame any step of the way. It is really OK if we wind up trying things out and then one of us decides not to continue. I'm not psychic and I don't think you are -- we can't tell what we will want in various scenarios until we are actually in them at that moment."

(6) QUIT trying to take care of H. It is his responsibility to try to make things work for himself. He is a big boy. When I was getting S, we only had one car. (We lived in a city and used the subway a lot.) Our MC suggested that he should explore rental cars or zip cars for those times he needed a car. *I* totally rejected this because I wanted the tie to him of having to share a car (HUGELY BAD IDEA), and also because I was trying to take care of him and was worried about him being able to manage if he had to rent a car (ANOTHER hugely bad idea). WAH's DO NOT WANT MOMMIES. And, they don't want partners in figuring out their lives. So, don't do it.

Best,
Oldtimer

I would totally do the refi. that rate isnt much difference, but gives you a totally different payment. You can always pay extra (make sure on that, and there are no prepayment penalties ) and if you can't make extra, well, then your still okay.

I'll read the other posts now... my 2 year old is all over me today, so I might not get to type much

Hi NikkiB. Sorry for your state here, but I wanted to chime in w/ my own experience.

First off, I think oldtimer is right on the money w/ the response. The only thing I'd add to what she wrote pertains to the comment about you having the house as a private space w/ boundaries. I certainly agree with that, but in my own situation I waffled a bit about whether 'my own safe place' included changing the locks on the house (not necessarily legal in all states, OK here). In the end I decided not to, as I didn't like the message it sent to W (i.e. possibly sending a message that she wasn't welcome back) and in the end, what did I have to hide, anyway.

That said, your situation may be different, with different concerns, so don't take my words as the be all and end all.

Now on to the real reason I popped in (quoting you in bold):

but I think I'm going to propose that we try 3 months of him staying w/his friend and me staying in the house, with him paying $500/mo or so to help cover the yard care, MC, any house repairs, etc. (and split any major house repairs that might come up). I'll pay the mortgage and other bills. At the 3 month point we can revisit, and possibly renegotiate.

So, I pretty much agreed to something similar w/ my WAW. She moved out, needing her space, blah, blah, blah. Never could have afforded it if I'd insisted she pay for her 1/2 of the house. I, of course, did this for the reasons I'm guessing you would. Namely, that you feared that by not agreeing, WAS would get angry and it would ruin all chances of reconciliation? (My other, maybe more important reason was that I wanted to let her have what she wanted. If she needed space, it was better to let her have it than to have her trapped in the house getting more bitter and resentful.)

Anyway, in our verbal agreement, she kicks in a tiny fraction of our mortgage, but here I am, X months down the road and she now wants a D.

So, if the D goes forward, there are two issues.

Will she now pay for her half from now until the time we settle the house?

What happens to all the interest/taxes/insurance that I paid solely out of my own pocket, but was really her obligation? She won't have enough to repay me, and I could really use that ~$10K to start a new life with some security. If I can't get that back, I could very well be penniless at the time of D.

So, I'm somewhat in agreement w/ ot about this point as well. But I have the experience of what might happen in the future if you agree to it.

Take care and good luck. I'll be checking in.

Thanks Oldtimer.

Yeah, I guess I hoped we could do this with no one getting mad but it just isn’t gonna be possible. H and I both finally accepted that I’m going to be hurt no matter what, so I guess we have to also accept that he’s going to get mad too. You sure hit the nail on the head with wanting everything to magically disappear. I actually thought moving out might appeal to him for that reason, no more house responsibilities, but I guess not.

We’re by no means done figuring all this out so I am really thankful for all your thoughts. I want to go into this strong when we go back to it in January. Somehow I have a feeling we won’t make it that long before we talk again because it’s eating at both of us, but it’s the plan for now.

I am really struggling with protecting myself but still showing respect for my H and not turning things any uglier than they already have to be. By respect I don’t mean being a doormat, just trusting him to do the right thing and negotiate on this stuff fairly (going into it with the attitude that I don’t trust or respect him would be a big mistake I think). I will protect myself but try and treat him as the good man I know he can be in the process.

I need to clarify a couple of things (not posting all that clearly today!):

1. No, $500 isn’t even close to an equal split of the combined household income. $1500 is probably closer. We’ve never combined our money, intentionally, because we were both more comfortable with that arrangement. He spends a lot more than I do – expensive hobbies and such and he’s also always been generous about spending money on me (us going out to dinner and such). I think because of what happened with my parents I always wanted to feel like I had my money and he had his, even if mine was less. We’ve been pretty free to spend how we wanted as long as the bills were paid. I would feel like I was trying to spite him by suddenly asking to split our combined income in half (it would feel to me like “this was fine when we were married but if you’re walking out I’m taking you to the cleaners!” – it really would). But, I do think you’re right it’s too low. I think I’ll start by asking him what he feels is fair just so I have an idea. He may well say $0 but at least I’ll know where we’re starting from.

2. Absolutely – I didn’t actually mean renegotiate the money, I meant renegotiate or at least discuss where we were each living (I realize my post was totally unclear!). I may find that the house is just too much for me and I'm open to discussing it later, if so.

3. Good points on the garage. I like the scheduled day/time idea. I thought about proposing a weekly or every other week “business meeting” where we can talk through these things – anyone have thoughts on that? I think we’ll see each other semi-regularly because he says he wants to and I’d like that (for now), but I’d also like to avoid having every time we see each other turn into “business” stuff. I almost suggested changing the lock on the door from the garage into the house, so he could get into the garage but not the house, but that seems pretty un-trusting and for now I do trust him to keep his word on whatever we agree to. I’ll keep the idea in the back of my mind though if things go downhill.

4. Another badly worded post on my part! I meant that the money would help me cover those bills, not that H would be responsible for paying them. My goal is to figure out a fair amount and have it be a monthly check.

5. Excellent response – thank you! I am trying hard to convey that although I am hoping things will work out, we’re BOTH free to change our minds. H sometimes seems to forget that I have that right too.

6. I’m trying, but thanks for the reminder! Your one car situation sounds really hard, I’m glad we don’t have to deal with that. I’ve let go of most of them, but H keeps trying to find “connectors” like that. When I mentioned something about towing the boat he said “You know you can always borrow my truck! I’ll teach you how to back up the trailer.” Actually he seems more worried about me than I am about him, at this point. He said in MC that he’s planning to come by often to check on me. I managed to halfway squeak out that I’d be fine and didn’t NEED that but would like to see him sometimes. I am not entirely sure they heard me but we can always talk about it again later. I want him to call first and not just drop by too.

How can he care so much and still walk out???

Hi Stoic,

Thanks for your post. Yeah, I really don’t feel right about the lock changing thing either. I am open to the possibility it might change but I think it sends the wrong message too – no trust, not welcome, somehing to hide, etc. If I were to get a rental I would probably give H a key actually, with the understanding that it’s for emergencies only. We still get along and are friendly (and trying to keep it that way if we can even with these tough negotiations).

About the money thing… I guess you’re right. I am probably a little bit in denial about the reality that a D might be on the horizon (ok, maybe more than a little bit). I feel SO strongly that we can and will pull through this and reconcile, but I need to be more realistic about what else might happen. I don’t want to make him angry or hurt our future chances, but since I think asking for even $1/month would make him angry that ship has pretty much sailed. Heck he’s even mad I can afford to live in our house by myself, since it blew his main argument out of the water. He can afford half the house and then some easily. If I were to move out, no way could I afford half – I’d need every dollar to live on.

Sorry to hear about your situation too. Good luck to you, I hope it works out better than it’s looking right now.

Hey one more quick question for you guys. Any thoughts on our savings accounts? Part of our financial “plan” included that I did most of the saving for things like home repairs or improvements, while he paid the mortgage. BUT, I’m also a much better “saver” in general than he is. So we have some savings accounts that we’ve always considered “ours” such as the house fund. However, there are also several that we’ve always considered “mine” such as the one from my stock plan at work. I also save throughout the year for car insurance, registration, Christmas, etc. while H tends to just pay for those types of things out of his most recent paycheck.

What this means is, we’ve got a fair amount of both “my” and “our” money set aside in savings, but H doesn’t have much of “his” money saved. I am now seeing the wisdom of combining finances more than we ever did….<sigh>. We never really had money issues til now though.

I had hoped to just leave all the savings accounts as is except possibly using “our” account to purchase any furniture either of us might need. The rest I’d hope to only worry about them if we D… but I realize that if things get ugly H may push to split them up now. Any suggestions??

I am so glad our 401(k)s are roughly equal. This is a nightmare.

Hi Nikki. I'll quote you in bold.

First off, you may lock soon? I think you're up to nine pages?

Second, I want to make it very clear that my intent with my post was not to advocate any particular position, rather to point out the consequences of the decision I took. Didn't want to hijack to talk about me, certainly, but my experience is certainly relevant. Having said that:

About the money thing… I guess you’re right. I am probably a little bit in denial about the reality that a D might be on the horizon (ok, maybe more than a little bit).

Depends. To me, denial is

"This is not happening to me." I hope where you are is more like this... "This is happening, but I'd like to do everything I can where I have control to change this."

I feel SO strongly that we can and will pull through this and reconcile, but I need to be more realistic about what else might happen.

Well, the way I'd say it is

"Hope for the best, plan for the worst, and expect something in the middle."

What you don't want to do is perhaps what I do too much of and that's focus so much on the worst that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Conversely, if you bury your head in the sand and believe a D is not possible and then it happens.... that would be a long, hard fall.

I don’t want to make him angry or hurt our future chances, but since I think asking for even $1/month would make him angry that ship has pretty much sailed.

Bottom line is that you have to do what you think is right. Don't sell yourself short, essentially rolling over and being a doormat now. Just realize that decisions made here could have consequences later. That was what I was getting at. I didn't give much thought at all to repercussions of my intial agreement to the finances.

Take care, and rest assured that if oldtimer is looking in on you, you're in good hands. I make a point to see out oldtimers posts for my own benefit, and try to point others in that direction too.