Cobra you have to take a bit deeper look into Kagens work to see what his criticism of attachment theory is based on. Kagens research has been in what he calls “temperament” that is the reactivity of an infant. He is of the opinion that we are born with different levels of sensitivity and activity of the amygdala. A difficulty in testing theories of attachment is the actual measurement of attachment. Kagen is saying that in many experiments what is being viewed is an infants level of reactivity based on temperament and not it’s level or quality of attachment.
He does not deny the existence of attachments but he is critical of the experiments and conclusions of much of the research into attachment. The author himself would be able to explain his ideas and criticism a lot better than I could ever dream of.
What interests me is his idea of people possessing a range of reactivity in the amygdala and the possible consequences of this reactivity. Of particular interest is the research Done into the amygdala and female sexual response.
What the study reports is that the amygdala needs to calms down and eventually shuts down during a woman’s sexual response. If this is true and your partner has highly reactive amygdala she is going to have a more difficult time getting, maintaining and feeling sexually arousal than someone who has a less reactive amygdala.
Women need to feel safe could be inferred from this study, the question then may be what makes a woman feel safe and able to be less anxious?
“I am now seeing in her words that she DOES want me to control things, maybe not her per se, but the uncertainty that frightens her.”
FWIW, I didnt disagree with GEL, Cally or Burgbud comments..
You and your W have a lot to work thru, and its going to take time, persistance on your part, and repeated demonstration of real boundaries. The more you have the more she will relax.
The faster you can implement this without anger the faster your W will progress too.
To me seeing you and Mrs.Cobra go thru this is like watching Ceasar Milans apprentice work with a redline dog.
Ceasar could do it quicker because he KNOWS he will have success and he has the experience to avoid the bites and attacks. The apprentice is learning and when he gits bit he gits pissed and kicks the dog. He isnt sure of his success, and that and his reactive anger will delay the outcome. There is only one way to learn and thats go thru it on your own. (stop kicking the dog or your fired ) lol. There is no other way though, except to go thru the fighting and conflit. It may not look sweet and rosy garden to us observing, but it is worth it. The important thing is that you dont associate your successes to your reactive anger and think that is the correct way to deal with it. When you react you need to realize that she has hit a sensitive spot and you lost control of yourself. its understandable, but not acceptable.
Quote: I think this concept is not given enough discussion on this board. Why is it that a woman married to a known criminal, killer, or some other horrible type of person can fall in love with him? Are you serious about this question? I thought we had discussed it-- a lot. Sure that woman may be sick herself and is desperately looking for love, but that horrible man she loves is giving her the soothing and compassion that allows her to look past all his evil traits. No. he demostrates male attributes. Often in an extreme fashion. Thats what she needs because of her FOO/trauma. Attraction is a biological response. It is not a choice. In fact, she may not even see why he is vilified. Yes they do. It doesnt matter though. He is her man and she is going to support him no matter what. (untill he stops demonstrating attractive male attributes that is. --There is no such thing as a lover's oath. -Plato)
When you know what the attractive male attributes are (and I mean know as in feel it in your gut ) you will stop wondering this. Your looking at it thru logic, not a womans emotional response.
Your question is akin to a woman asking why a man would 'fall in love' with a very visually attractive woman who has all sorts of drug, pysch, eating issues --basically 'needs' him to save her. Our desire drive is there to make sure we keep breeding with the 'best' (perceived) available mate. It dont care about any logic. If you dont control your perception, and hence your reality, your biology will drag you about willy nilly in an effort to feel good and avoid pain/conflict/intimacy.
Oh yeah... your wifes remark about not mixing emotion and sex. Very telling. IMO she is afraid.
Help her thru her fear, by showing the way with your actions, not pushing and shoving her ahead of you.
For example, when I take my nephews hiking, and we find a tarantula I dont pick it up and throw it on them to get them over their hesitation and fear. I pick it up and sit down and let them gather around at a distance they are comfortable with while they watch it crawl around on me up my arms, on my shoulder, on my head, and see for themself that it is safe. I tell them about it and how soft and delicate and that they have to be gentle with the tarantula so they dont hurt it. What I talk about doesnt really matter, they are seeing what to do and how to do it. Then when they are ready they hold out their hand and it crawls up on them, off my hand on to theirs and back onto my other hand. I give them just a moment to feel the feather light weight, then I remove it again. they process the new feeling -the fear diminishes, then want to do it again a little longer.
Its a process of desensitazation. you cant force a big heaping helping of fear and newness all at once and expect success or the outcome you want.
To me seeing you and Mrs.Cobra go thru this is like watching Ceasar Milans apprentice work with a redline dog.
Yep, I’ve often felt like that.
The important thing is that you dont associate your successes to your reactive anger and think that is the correct way to deal with it. When you react you need to realize that she has hit a sensitive spot and you lost control of yourself. its understandable, but not acceptable.
I have never reacted to anyone else the way I react with my wife. With anyone else, the mix is different, so different reactions take place. (Also, kids aren’t involved.) I have no guilt about my reactions. They may not be ideal, but that’s me. She has her role in all this too.
Oh yeah... your wifes remark about not mixing emotion and sex. Very telling. IMO she is afraid.
That is my read on her comment too. This topic is a long way from finished.
Help her thru her fear, by showing the way with your actions, not pushing and shoving her ahead of you.
The work I have been doing, the reading, the posting, the conversations, have all been my way of leading. The problem with leading is that the other person may decide not to follow. So then you need to either push, or throw a rope around their neck and pull. But as I mentioned on Lou’s thread, doing nothing will result in D.
Its a process of desensitazation. you cant force a big heaping helping of fear and newness all at once and expect success or the outcome you want.
Yes, which is why I feel the adult attachment ideas have merit to them and go a long way to filling in the gaps that the other approaches have. When I put everything together into one package (MWD, Schnarch, Harley, IMAGO, Deida, Block), and I feel I have a tool that I can use to move forward with.
I have never reacted to anyone else the way I react with my wife. With anyone else, the mix is different, so different reactions take place. (Also, kids aren’t involved.) I have no guilt about my reactions. They may not be ideal, but that’s me. She has her role in all this too.
Nod. Yes she does, and I understand the not ever reacting like this. Not having remorse/guilt/culpability for your caustic emotional reactions is ...I hate to say it... a Narcisstic trait though. You dont have to feel shamed(pride) of them, you can say yep I did that, it was an error, and I need to work on it, but going beyond and not caring is very damaging to both you and her.
Maybe I should restate that comment…. I am not proud or happy of the fact that I get angry with her, but it is a part of me and as much as I can control it, I will not try to hide it either. Stuffing your reactions breeds resentment and while you may make life more comfortable for your spouse, they know the have a one-up position on you. W has used this tactic on me before, trying to “guilt” me into being nice, which is really to say she does not want me to object to an issue she is pushing, but rather that I go along with her decision.
You know I won’t play that game anymore, so if I get angry, its because I feel pushed over my limit. W can think about her actions in creating this situation and doing her part to compromise if my getting angry bothers her. I do not think we have completely evolved to the point that respect (and fear) is always present for the basic rights and underlying power each of us has as people. I do think we are moving in the right direction, but every now and then she seems to “forget” and needs a little reminding.
Quote: Not having remorse/guilt/culpability for your caustic emotional reactions is ...I hate to say it... a Narcisstic trait though. You dont have to feel shamed(pride) of them, you can say yep I did that, it was an error, and I need to work on it, but going beyond and not caring is very damaging to both you and her.
Good point. I think you can see this is true Cobra if you equate your anger to my tears. We should both know that we've gone too far down a wrong-minded path when we have these reactions. The point isn't that you should learn to suppress or repress your anger. The point is that you should be smart enough to avoid it. Trace back your steps until you find the place where you lost your cool and then you'll find it. I'll betcha that you lost it when you stepped over your natural boundary and stepped into the area in which you were trying to control your wife and the situation. I also betcha that you were thinking along the lines of "I'm doing this for the good of the kids" or "Why should I have to.." or "I have the right to.." or "If she cared about my happiness, she would...." when you stepped over that line.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
...if I get angry, its because I feel pushed over my limit.
Just like Heather.
W can think about her actions in creating this situation and doing her part to compromise if my getting angry bothers her.
So can Heather's H.
I do not think we have completely evolved to the point that respect (and fear) is always present for the basic rights and underlying power each of us has as people. I do think we are moving in the right direction, but every now and then she seems to “forget” and needs a little reminding.
Just like Heather's sitch.
Stuffing your reactions breeds resentment and while you may make life more comfortable for your spouse, they know the have a one-up position on you.
Yet that's exactly the course you recommend for Heather. Is she somehow more resistant to resentment than you are?
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I know Heather’s sitch and mine are similar in many ways. I do think she needs to use a carrot and stick approach. The walls of her H are very strong and I do not think he will not become a compassionate husband just because she stops pushing. I do think he was damaged as a child, like my W, and because of this he was conditioned to focus on his needs, not others, and the way to get those needs met was through force. This means he never had modeled to him how to be empathic, understanding and compassionate.
In fact, I am not sure he really understands this concept and what the difference is between healthy and dysfunctional relationships. My guess is that it is all a gray area to him. So my recommendation to Heather (and some others) is to use a carrot and stick approach to better identify the difference between the two. I believe there is a huge amount of inertia in these problem relationships and it is very difficult to get unstuck. If this problem is not corrected, I think the marriage will fail. IMO it is not a matter of if, but only a matter of when.
So to your comments, I do think both Heather and I should work on our reactivity. But I do not think either of us should shut it down. Just offering the carrot will not work in my marriage and I doubt it will work in hers. Both of our marriages suffer from boundaries problems. Not just setting boundaries but in respecting the boundaries of our spouse. If the only way we have learned to respect boundaries as children is through the use of force, then it will take some time to reprogram our spouse to respect those boundaries because they are legitimate, not just physically enforced.
If Heather’s H will respect her wishes, that would be great. But he doesn’t. He overpowers her and does as he pleases. It leaves her with little recourse. So I think that if she can show two extremes to differentiate the gray, help her to establish and maintain boundaries, stand up to his controls, and show him the compassion that he really wants, then he may slowly come around.
But also, Heather has a right to get angry, and express it, IMO. I do the same. I’m not trying to rationalize it, just saying it is a part of me, as it is of her. But I have worked hard on not holding onto the anger and resentment. I might get mad in the moment, but he next day I am fine and willing to shift into happy mood, if it comes up. I try not to hold the resentment since all that does is rob W of the opportunity to make up. I want her (and myself) to feel comfortable in opening communication again and continuing to move forward. If W did something wrong, I do not want to shut the door to her apology.
I guess I don’t understand your point. I thought her reaching out to her H as he would like, in order to show some compassion and soothing, is a way of offering the carrot. The stick is in not walking on eggshells, accepting his intimidation and control tactics, and holding to her boundaries. Did I make a contradictory statement somewhere?
) lol. There is no other way though, except to go thru the fighting and conflit. It may not look sweet and rosy garden to us observing, but it is worth it. The important thing is that you dont associate your successes to your reactive anger and think that is the correct way to deal with it. When you react you need to realize that she has hit a sensitive spot and you lost control of yourself. its understandable, but not acceptable.