Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries

I totally sympathize with you. I have a genetic back problem, plus other problems to my back from a car accident when I was 19. Well, I do believe that no matter what ailment, there can be miracles, and even if not a miracle, you can get better. I totally understand the feeling 80 thing. I was stuck in a bed for weeks almost because I couldn't move. Then afterwards, I had lost so much muscle, I culdn't do much, and after having my 2nd child, I never lost the rest of the weight, and therefore caused more pain in my back so I started feeling sorry for myself too in a way, and feeling unattractive, and acting like it. For me, dropping the weight was a great relief, even though I wasn't even over weight. I am 5'5" and was 140-145, well after what I call the "james diet" I got down to 120.. guess I lost more than I thought. Well, My back has never felt better in the last 5 years. I never thought that my weight was causing that much of a problem. And since I was excersizing, that was helping too.

So, I don't know what your ailment is, but keep working at it, because it CAN get better! God made our bodies so resiliant!

Anyways, I think that because you are feeling disgusted inside about you saying how it's okay for him to be friends and you don't know why people don't see that. I think that it is not necessary for you to actually say those things, but instead just validate what he is saying, by shaking your head, or saying yes, I understand, and stuff like that. Your still validating, but your not making it your own opinion. The problem I see with you stating these untrue opinions is that eventually you are going to want him to know how you truely feel, so it will be harder for you to turn around and say, no I was just making all that up, I think that it's not right for you to do these things.

Does that make sense? Just my opinion.

And let me say that is absolutely AWESOME that your H did the dishes with you. WOW! Keep it going girl!

Oh, I also think that it would NOT be a good idea for you to leave when he ends up bringing her along. BE THERE EVERY TIME IF YOU CAN!!! The more times he has alone with her, the more times she can be even more flirtatious and something may end up happening, if it hasn't already. Unfortunately, I think you just need to suck it up as best as you can, look as HOT as you can and try to have a good time. Really, if you were in his shoes, and he's seeing his wife looking dull and bored, and this OW having fun and being flirtatious, who do you think he will want to hang around? I know that's harsh, sorry. That was really hard for me to deal with. I'm thinking, oh, they're probably having such a good time, having so much to talk about (my H's OW was an old friend before he met me) while I feel like I have nothing to say and am boring to talk to.

But FEAR NOT! You are a interesting lady and your fun to be with! So really play it up.

That is so cool that you traded in your yucky clothes for fun and sexy ones!! That was an awesome idea.

You just keep building that confidence up, and maybe start flirting too. YES, that suggestive message.. I totally got the wrong idea on what you meant. That is good, keep doing things like that, and definitely initiate intimacy too!

Someone wrote me once that they decided to do a 180 on how they had sex. So, maybe doing things differently in the bedroom- and plus, it'll make things more interesting anyways... we should never let sex become routine.. that's when we loose the passion.

Anyways, I'm glad you are doing such a good job. My H was way far gone than yours- he wanted a D and had been sleeping with the OW, but fortunately he's back in my life now. So there is always hope, and a chance for reconciliation, and rebuilding.

God Bless,


p.s. You know, although this is not DBing, I wrote my H a letter on 2 seperate occassions. I was very considerate in how I worded everything and was not putting any blame at all. But what I did do, was explain how certain things made me feel and that I acknowledged his comments that our marriage was horrible and that I did not want him to be in a marriage like what we had, but I would love to start a new marriage with him. Anyways, he told me afterwards, that he did take my letters to heart and that they did help with his decision to stay.

So I think sometimes it is necessary to step out of DBing just a little. But timing is everything. So at some point, I think it would be appropriate to maybe write him a letter, or email or something, saying how much you love how helpful he's been and all the wonderful qualities you can think of and then tell him how that makes you feel, but also tell him that the reason you had been so negative about them two being together was because it made you feel uncomfortable and you would love to be his best friend and that you would like to be that person he so much is drawn to in her.

Just a thought though. I'm a big letter person. It's hard for me to talk things in person, and having a letter in front of you means you can read it again and again and the letter can't be interupted either.

But you do what you feel is best for your situation. Just make sure you never talk bad about her, and I would not show him that letter about OW's because he will take major offense to it and will defend her instead. I would just basically not talk about her at all. If he does, just nod and try not to continue the conversation.

okay, my two year old is trying to mess me up! talk to you soon!

Stilltryin,
I honestly don't think your letters to your H were unDB. If this was part of a thought out strategy then it certainly is DBing. What isn't DBing is crying, begging, blaming etc. To write a letter containing any of that kind of stuff is completely unDB! To write something outlining where you stand, what you feel, and where you want to go is just providing your H with a clearheaded plan of where you want your life to go. He can be part of it or not. I did the same thing with my W. I still feel proud of what I wrote and felt that now I had said everything that needed to be said. I was then able to put it to rest therefore there was no crying, pleading etc. I never wanted to think "Oh, if I had only said...." I said it, end of story. My W keeps the letter and even has the big bow I put on it, she has it taped to her dresser alongside all my Valentine and Anniversary cards to her! Go figure? It didn't change my sitch but it sure didn't hurt it. You got a positive result so you must indeed know your H and what would work for him. DBing is trying something, if it doesn't work you try something else. You can now tape back together your DB membership card, you're still in the club (or maybe I'm out now too!)

Thanks Stilltryin and Whatisis for your posts!

Stilltryin – wow, we have a lot in common. I definitely need to keep on working on it. I had gotten pretty discouraged and depressed for awhile there, but the only way out of it is to keep on being more active. I know once the weight comes off it will be MUCH better, too.

Thank you for your thoughts about my replies on OW too. Validating sounds like a better choice – and truer to myself.

About the “3” of us going out – you make some really good points, thank you! I realized last night that when we’ve gone out with friends, we’ve had several times where I sat in the corner ready to cry or scream while he and OW had a great time. And you’re absolutely right – looking at it from his perspective, of COURSE he’d rather spend time with the “fun one.” I was also remembering how we all went to a car race several months ago (it’s one of H’s passions that I enjoy to a point too). I was jumping up and down rooting for our friends every lap, while OW was not only bored but really irritating and rude about it - H talked for DAYS about how much fun he and I had and how “weird” OW acted, and actually I didn’t see her for a few weeks after that. Wow – I’ve had more power over this whole situation than I realized for a long time now.

Last night H was out with a big group of friends from work which I know included OW, and I was calmer about it than I’ve been in months. Did some house cleaning, did my nails, hung out with the dog, nothing earth shattering but the thought of it didn’t torment me all night for the first time so I was excited.

Those letters you wrote to your H sound amazing!! The starting a new marriage with him is a wonderful sentiment, and I’m so glad that your situation has turned around. I’ll have to go back and read some of your old posts for inspiration.

Hi all,

Sorry - total subject change but I had another question. I posted this over on the Newcomers board too but realized a few more people may be following the story over here. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about choosing an MC? H told me that he sees me changing and is happy to see it but he also thinks I’m avoiding the issues (or rather…continuing to) by not setting up MC. That really surprised me, but I’m glad he wants to pursue it and agree he may be right.

First question - my company has an assistance plan where we can get 5 sessions at no cost, and they’re covered by my health plan if we need more. The problem is, all I get is a list of 20 or so people to choose from with no information. Via web searches I found more info about 2 of them. Any thoughts on which is the best choice?? Or should I call more of the 20 to get more info?

MC #1’s approach/focus is “cognitive behavioral.” He likes to work together in the first session, individually in the next 2, and take it from there.
MC #2’s approach/focus is “Transactional Analysis.” Seems very individual focused – but apparently is also effective for couples from what I found on the web. I don’t know a lot about it.
Option # 3. If neither of these work out, how are the DB coaches? I want to try the insurance covered options first, but will explore other options if need be. I think H really wants to go in person instead of phone though.

Second but related question – before finding DB I panicked a bit and signed up for this program: http://www.marriagemax.com/index.asp. Any thoughts on it? It isn’t all that different from DB, but it’s a big time commitment and I can’t decide how much time to commit to this vs. individual work on me vs. DBing, spending good time with H, and MC with H. Our first Marriage Max “teleseminar” threw H into a real tailspin (described further in my MLC post ). His only comment before becoming really depressed was “This program is for people who hate each other – we don’t! This won’t help our issues at all.” I am getting some value from the CDs, but I think the majority of my energy needs to be focused on GAL and one on one MC with H. If anyone’s had great success with Marriage Max though, I’d be interested in hearing about it.

Very strange situation, but from a Man's perspective I would say your H doesn't have any designs on OW other than what he's telling you (Friends). A Man doesn't generally refer to OW as a "friend" if he has intimate designs on her. I'm not saying a Man isn't a friend to his lover, but there is a different type of friendship between a lover and just a female acquaintance in Man thought.

I'm saying this hypothetically, but if (as a man) I was going to cheat with OW, I damn sure wouldn't invite my W with us to dinner and would try to keep the two of them as separated as possible. I'm not the cheating type but just being true to my instinctive nature as a Man, I'd say you need not worry about this OW. Your H is being to honest with you to be setting the stage for an affair. It is constructive that your re-assessing your relationship at this stage though. I wish I would have been more pro-active.

Nikki, I have to disagree with Astimegoeson. He is not thinking like a MLCer. He's thinking like a normal guy. I think many others posting here have heard 'we are just friends'. My H told me for many months that he and OW were just friends. Don't know if I mentioned it before, but he actually asked me how I could go through life, being such a negative person as to think that a man couldn't have female friends, that were just friends.... That was about 2 weeks before I found proof that they'd had PA for several months already. What he is doing is inappropriate behavior for a married man, esp a married man who's wife has said that it bothers her. Most especially if this has not been his behavior before. My H and OW managed to have her H and I at dinner with them, go to weddings together, and even scheduled a hike for all of us, (which I did not attend). It's great sport to see if they can get that close to each other, with their spouses there, and not be found out. Think of the excitement and suspense to be near each other, within our company and have that adrenaline coarsing through them and not be able to react to it. OW sat at my kitchen counter, as the queen of MY party, entertaining the crowd. H doted on her, like a good host. Trust me, unless he has had a history of flirting with women, this IS different. H went out to dinner with OW, and when they'd see someone they knew, he told them he was helping her find a house.... he was helping her find a condo for the two of them!

Check out other posts, you'll see this played out again and again. I don't mean to scare you. But, it sounds like you may be at the stage where it's the excitement between them, and maybe it hasn't gotten physical yet. So you have to walk a tightrope of not getting on him so bad that he says it's nagging, but, figuring out ways to make yourself desireable and fun, and keeping him occupied without her. Your car races was excellent... you did it, you had fun, and she didn't!! very cool. Besides, if you have date nights, it should be you and your H, or couples you are friends with. OW actually went to the MC with her H... She tried to give me advice on how to 'keep my husband'... and not drive him away. What a pile of Bull!! This is after they'd already had their Affair and I caught them. She had no intention of staying with her H, if she could have mine. I sound bitter toward OW, and You bet I am! She set out to do this, and did it. My H was in a crisis, and as he said, sometimes you just gotta look down the well. And, he looked, and he fell in! You can only do so much. And, even then, it might not matter, if he's in a crisis. But, you will know you have done your best. And, if the timing is right, and he is still open to your advances, you may just get him to realize what a prize you are, before he moves to the PA. We're all pulling for you! Keep up your great work. Think of more things like the car races. Maybe you can make plans with other couples, and make reservations or get tickets for some event,... if you buy concert tickets, and the seats are assigned, your H friend will not easily be able to get a seat next you you and your friends.


Once

Let me rephrase since I didn't think of this in the context of a MLC Male.

It's true, I'm a normal Man, so in that context, I would lie, deceive, and conceal. I certainly would cover all my tracts to the best of my ability and under no circumstance would I introduce the W to her. That would preserve the excitement of the affair. MSTBX hid her EA until I stumbled on to it and even then She couldn't face the reality of the damage it caused to our family. I always thought She was in some kind of MLC, but maybe I was wrong. After I discovered it I really started to distance myself more from her. Maybe in her warped mind, she was protecting my feelings by concealing it, I don't know. I do know that after I discovered the affair She started to loose interest in this OM. I've heard from her Family members that it's totally over, but I don't know and at this point it makes little difference to me.

I stand corrected, add a little MLC and the behavior could even be more mischievous. I'm not sure what I would hate more, pushing it in my face or hiding it from me.

Astimegoeson, I agree totally. Someone not in MLC, would try to hide it totally. Also, like your W, my H (now that he's living with OW), will not be anywhere I am. He will instant msg, but will not come see me or speak to me on the phone. Even though he walks 10' away from my office daily. Like your W, I think he thinks it makes it hurt less. The 'in my face', was definatly MLC, because it made me madder, and made me challenge him, which gave him a reason to say I was miserable, and say it was my problem, that caused him to look at her. He was enjoying the thrill, and driving me to it. He finally left a receipt on the counter, as if it he wanted me to find it. I really think he thought I'd divorce him on the spot. Guess the joke was on him. (on me too, because I would have though that's what I would have done). I'm very sorry, that your W is your STBXW.

Once

Let me just pop in here to recommend the book NOT "Just Friends" - I have a zillion sticky notes in that book. It TOTALLY starts as 'just friends' but the boundaries are blurred. If you can't share all that you're doing/talking about with the opposite sex person with your spouse, something is wrong.

My H had this very same thing happen and he details the start of his slippery slope into his A here - I HOPE you can't relate to it, but I think you may.

I guess I'm looking at this more objectively now because for all practical purposes, I'm an unattached Man.

I have many female "friends" and even as a single Man with nothing to hide, loose, or feel guilty about, I can recognize the boundaries and master my emotions. I can freely cross that boundary between "friend & lover" if I choose to. Regardless of my sense of attraction, I'm still in control of where the relationship goes or doesn't go. The belief that Men are somehow out of control sexually and lead around by their "little head" is BS. Friendship doesn't go magically and uncontrollably from one realm to another unless he so chooses.

Any Man that tells you he didn't see it coming or didn't expect it is lying to you. MLC or not, a Man can recognize those boundaries and know when he wants to cross them.

I would still venture to say that if he can tell his W about his female friend, then most likely he doesn't have intent to take it any further. However, if he starts to go silent about his female friend all of the sudden, I'd beware.

I still think Men no matter what their frame of mind (MLC or not) work off of intent. If he intends on having an affair, he's not going to reveal it (directly or indirectly) unless he has some other ulterior motive.

If the motive is pure unadulterated attraction, then your most likely not going to know this OW without doing some digging yourself. Consider yourself lucky if he exposes her, because he's trying to tell you something and at least your in the fight.