Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Value vs. Validation- Mojo's Grand Unified Theory

Damn Lil, what is it with these guys? Everything is rosey, just as long as they "make and serve ya a cup of coffee"(or pumpkin pie or whatever is your "thing")

I don't mean to jump on your posts, but, they are that good for me and others that maybe going thru the aging of their guys.

The other day when I said I blew it and hit all the wrong buttons,

H said,"How can I get close when you fly off the handle?"

I said, "What is it that the guys say? She needs to be laid? Ever consider THAT? What harm would it do for you to hold me for 5 min?"

H,"Well I do give you a hug"

M,"What about holding me 10 min?"

H, "A second ago it was 5min. Where will it stop? What's enough for you?"

M,*blink* "What does that have to do with anything? What were you going to do with that time? Is it too much of an imposition to hold your wife for 15 min?*blinks more*"

Where did the guys get the idea that sex was on a quota? Where did they get the idea that we had no need for affection? Yet don't cook like when they were kids and they will sulk for a week! hmm...(in an effort to get back to the thead, that is a Value post isn't it? Well Value for him and Validation/Value for me.)

Desparation and hopelessness hurts...{{{Hugs}}}

LostGal, I have to admit that when I've mentioned to bf my need for physical contact he has indicated that our standing, fully-clothed hugs ARE physical contact. Like that should be enough for me.

Now in all fairness, we do sleep in naked spoon position just about every night, but strangely there doesn't appear to be anything erotic about it for either of us. Well, there isn't for me... there might be for him, but if there is, he doesn't act like it.

I remember the spooning before D was born and the protected comforted feeling of deep sleep; take some comfort in that.

Keep your efforts going or that will dissappear with the first snoring session that disrupts you and you go elsewhere. Lou's togetherness in tenderness approach combined with alternative measures seems so simple on the surface and so unobtainable to some.

{{{hugs}}}

Cobra, I don't really mean compliments when I say "validation". I'm not doing a good job of explaining myself. For instance, I could say that your anger validates your wife's sexuality and decreases the value you bring to the relationship. It decreases the value you bring for the obvious reason that nobody wants to be around an angry person. It validates her sexuality in two ways. It sends out the message that you find her sexy enough to become angry when you don't get some and it sends out the message that her low drive for you is reasonable because it allows her to think "No woman would want to have sex with a guy who acts/reacts like that.".

I should add here that I don't think that decreasing validation is what will make your partner happier to be in a relationship with you. It will simultaneously make your partner feel less secure (and therefore less happy)and more likely to want to leave the relationship and more eager to add value to the relationship in order to restore a feeling of happiness and security. If you just want your partner to feel happy and secure in the relationship then you should increase value AND validation. However if you want your partner to be motivated to add value to the relationship for you then you need to either add value or DECREASE validation or both. For instance, calmly stating "I will not stay in a sexless marriage" is a way of decreasing validation of low drive behavior. Saying this will not make your partner feel happy. It will either cause them to leave the relationship or add value to the relationship by increasing their sexual behavior.

OTOH, I agree that increasing validation in general is a way of adding value to a relationship and therefore increasing desire. For instance, if a HD person could simultaneously decrease their sexual validation of their partner and add value to the relationship by increasing their validation in other areas.

Cobra, what if the next time your wife turns you down, you were to semi-cheerfully say something like "Okay, I guess I'll just go pick up some porn. Would you like me to pick up any DVD's for you or the kids while I'm out?". One mental 180 I've done on myself is to just think about the ways in which I am better off being the HD rather than the LD partner. As a HD guy you can jack off guilt-free. If you were married to a HDW, you wouldn't be so lucky-(LOL). Another example would be that as a HDW I never have to think "He only loves me for my p*ssy.". Thinking along these lines can naturally lead you into 180 type behavior that will be successful.

As I said in my previouw post, I agree that increasing validation in general increases value. I would even go so far as to say that if you don't validate where there truly is value in your relationship then you better watch out because somebody else will. I'm just saying that you need to decrease validation in areas where you aren't getting value.

I'm not just talking about AOS either. For instance, in one of your recent posts you said that you wished that your H was confident or HD enough to initiate sex even at times when you were being sort of Type 4 moody. You want him to validate behavior that he does not value because you want him to accept you for who you are. This would be like me wanting my H to be HD enough to ignore the fact that I was 20 lbs. overweight. It's easy to think along the lines of "If my partner would just validate me unconditionally then it would be easier for me to add value.". This is true to the extent that people are naturally oppositional and resistant to being "controlled" but it is false to the extent that people are unlikely to change their behavior without significant motivation. You have to be VERY self-aware to avoid this. If your partner keeps offering you carrots no matter what you do it is very easy to forget that they might have a stick too. If your partner keeps trying to drive your behavior with a stick, it's very easy to forget that there must be a carrot in there somewhere for you too or you would be long gone. That's why I'm saying increase value and decrease validation. Keep both the carrot and the stick in full view for your partner and work at being more conscious of the stick and the carrot your partner is holding also.

When you and your H were both adding AOS maybe it was like you were both trying to show a bigger carrot because neither of you were willing to be the bad guy who got a stick. I guess what I'm saying is that in order to have a relationship that is successful in the sense that it is a relationship that is alive and growing and adapting both partners have to be willing to show the carrot and the stick.

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My bf is also AOS. If I withhold validation, he doesn't come closer, he just ignores me.

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You better be validating a guy who always has pie in the house for AOS. I'm sure there are a lot of ladies just looking for a spot to open up at his table. -LOL. Stop validating his low value LD behavior, not his high value AOS behavior.

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He may want me, but I have no way of knowing it and there's nothing left for me to do that I'm not already doing that could increase my "value."

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Then you need to decrease your validation of his LD behavior. Get out the stick. Of course, his reaction to the stick might inform you of ways you could increase your value though it can be hard to know. For instance, if your BF were to say "I don't want to have sex with you because you wear ugly shoes." this might be a true preference that would add value or it might just be a knee-jerk attempt on his part to reduce validation any way he can to equalize things. Unfortunately, if you have any fear that it may be true that you wear ugly shoes, you will have to once again increase value before you can decrease validation. It becomes real tough if your BF says something like "I don't want to have sex with you because you are too sexually demanding" thus implying that the fact that you are willing to use any sort of stick in order to get sex makes you unsexy. There's nothing you can do about this except recognize that it is just a reflection of the fact that your BF is not self-aware enough to realize that he forced you to bring out a stick because he was not motivated by your jumbo carrot. There is a very strong tendency on this BB (and you can see it in the responses to your post here) to want to believe that just because a LD partner has not responded to your value that they are inherently LD and there is nothing that would make them ever want sex. However, all the actual evidence offered on this BB does not support this. Many LD folk who do not respond to the carrot do respond to the stick and many LD folk who do not respond to the carrot they are currently being offered will respond to a different carrot. Maybe your BF really is turned off by your ugly shoes. Maybe you are unwilling or unable to wear attractive shoes. If this is revealed to be the case then the two of you should be able to have an amicable non-sexual relationship or an amicable break-up as soon as you are able to get over the fused feeling of "He should desire me in spite of my ugly shoes." and he is able to get over the fused feeling of "If she loved me she would buy some attractive shoes.".

MJ

It would be useful to me to have a list of some concrete ways to add value to the R. I know the ways to add value are not going to be the same for all R's. But what are some things that you (and anyone else who wants to respond) would feel would increase value in the R?

Thanks for starting this thread. To me this seems to be very practical advice. The hardest part for me would be decreasing validation, especially at this stage of our M. But I figure increasing value should be doable.

Chrome

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The hardest part for me would be decreasing validation, especially at this stage of our M. But I figure increasing value should be doable.

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Well, clearly the reason why you feel like it would be hard to decrease validation at this point in your marriage is that by having an EA you made a move that decreased both value and validation. In general, what I mean by things that add value are things that would make you more desirable as a partner to most women including the fact that you are flexible/perceptive enough to make yourself desirable to any particular woman. For instance, being in shape and giving good gifts would add value for most women. However, one particular woman might get more value from your buff biceps whereas another might get more value from your 6-pack abs and one woman might like diamond jewelery while another would prefer a simple bouquet of daisies etc. etc.

MJ

I can see things like 6-pack abs and big biceps adding value to a partner that is a PT person. And the diamond jewelry would be for a GG person. How about AOS? Would doing extra chores or helping with the kids add value to the M? I would worry about it coming across as placating or supplicating. In a sense, non-verbal validating, if that makes any sense. The same could be true of the diamond jewelry.

I understand that making YOURSELF a more valuable commodity should increase desire in your SO. But how would gift-giving and acts of service (and to some degrees quality time) factor into that? Is being more helpful a partner adding value to yourself? I guess I can see that, so long as the GG and AOS are done with no desire for reciprocation. But could that be twisted around as subjegating your needs for your partners?

All this stuff is just boucing around in my head. I'm having a hard time finding clarity.

Chrome

Lil {{{Hugs}}} to you. I am feeling somewhat similar at the moment. I had a dream the other night that I think shows how I am feeling about our R. In the dream H had done some gardening (IRL he rarely touches the garden). I went out there all ready to load on the WOA only to find that he had pruned everything back so hard that there was no chance it would grow back. I was stuck standing there full of shock and anger and him like a little kid waiting to be given a pat on the back for his handiwork.

When I think about this dream I feel like I have been working hard to tend the marriage garden with no help from him, now we are at C and he is putting in some effort. But the effort is all wrong Like your BF and the pumpkin pie.

By Mojo's theory of not validating what you don't want, I am thinking that maybe you should not spoon naked in bed every night. That is validating that it is OK just to cuddle. You are so starved for physical affection that you grasp at this but maybe you shouldn't KWIM. Maybe you should try (and I know you will have tried in the past) to up the ante - when nothing happens get up out of the bed, put your PJs on and climb back in without cuddling up.

If he says anything just say - naked spooning makes me think about sex, I don't want to think about sex when I can't have it.

And maybe you should repeat it night after night. So he goes through a cycle of "mmmm this is nice" to "uh oh" to out in the cold.

Our pup is getting cheeky lately and has "forgotten" how to fetch his ball. He runs after it, then he brings it almost back, then he runs away with it. Encouraging him with treats doesn't often work, turning your back on him and walking back in the house works immediately. I think we get hopeful when our partners almost do what we want and we encourage them trying to coax them one step closer. Maybe that is the point at which we need to stop validating, to show them that almost is not good enough.

Fran