Yes, it all comes down to balance in the end. I think it's important not to look at things on just one plane, but to look at the whole picture and care for your entire being in a balanced way. If you do nothing but avoid emotional pain it is likely that you will be in dire straights before too long because you will have failed to make adult decisions or take prudent action because doing so is an act of resistance, using Chodrin's model - causing pain (I think she actually became violent with her husband when he told her he was cheating on her, if I remember correctly - shocking if you've ever seen her or heard her talk). I don't advocate accepting anything your spouse might do or accepting anything less than what you judge to be acceptable grounds for a renewed relationship just to put yourself through a spiritual test. As you point out in your analogy, there's always a positive to focus on in any situation if you are so inclined, but proactively choosing to put yourself in healthy situations is far better for you than using PMA as a reactive defense mechanism. I think we have all, for our own reasons, have made the decision to stick it out. The best way to cope with a less than desireable situation is to find value and meaning in the experience and in so doing not acknowledge the pain or the cause of the pain.
I make a distinction between hope and a rigid worldview. I think you can hope for something without expectation - and in so doing not experience dissapointment when you don't get what you are hoping for. It's a risky game, because hoping does become a bit of an investment. I find that fixing that hope to something more abstract is a healthier way of doing this, because instead of finding faults in the details of what you get, you are better able to fit what you actually receive into the abstract thing you hoped for than the specific. When you try and control your world and your position in it by creating a rigid structure for how people *should* act and judge them, you create first a lot of pain in yourself because people don't act the way you think they should because you are too subjective to know what that objective should really looks like. Secondly, you judge yourself equally harshly when you judge others (because you are really judging the portion of yourself that is reflecting the actions of another) and you hurt because you recognize that you don't live up to your standards of what people should do either. This is painful. I think it's possible to accept that you don't know what the universe should be like, you can only experience how it is and still hope things will turn out good for you in whatever area of your life you are hoping for change in. I don't think this causes pain.
The concept of the gateless gate resonates with me here. It's basically about achieving enlightenment, and how once this has been done you realize that you had it all along (but I am going to apply it to happiness rather than enlightenment). Passing through a gate into a different state, turning around and realizing the boundary is not really there - nothing separates you from where you were before. The attachment of happiness to a material object (or a spiritual one for that matter) always makes your happiness contingent on something and puts it just out of reach. The truth is that it is always there, and the hint that you got that happiness can be gained through that object or the possession of it is actually happiness in the moment, and it was experienced without the satisfactiong of the anticipation of possessing that object. And all too often, when you finally do get what you thought would bring you happiness, you're let down. If you can accept that you are happy, that you possess the ability to be happy all along, you just focus on it or are aware of it in certain stimulating situations, you can separate it from an external stimulus and look to the true nature of it within the self. It really comes from appreciation and perspective. It's the choice to appreciate something that makes desiring to possess it feel like it will bring happiness. The act of appreciating it is a happy act, the desire to possess the object is a result of our fear of losing that happiness. It eventually kills the feeling of happiness because we are fixating on the fear. If we recognize that we never lose the ability to appreciate, we fear the loss of happiness less because that happiness is always with us. Overcoming our fear is ultimately what allows us to live meaningful lives. A person consumed with fear is generally a pretty unhappy, unhealthy person because they always put their happiness on the other side of their fears. They are constantly trying to work through fear, to banish it and rid themselves of it, yet they are making it a bigger part of their being. They are amplifying its significance because they are focusing on it. Within this is the choice to hand all of their personal power to fear by waging war with it.
I've read somewhere about the difference between people who are motivated to succeed and those who would rather avoid failure. The difference is profound in their consciousness because or what they use to motivate them. Which personality type do you really think is happier?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Yes, it all comes down to balance in the end. I think it's important not to look at things on just one plane, but to look at the whole picture and care for your entire being in a balanced way. If you do nothing but avoid emotional pain it is likely that you will be in dire straights before too long because you will have failed to make adult decisions or take prudent action because doing so is an act of resistance, using Chodrin's model - causing pain (I think she actually became violent with her husband when he told her he was cheating on her, if I remember correctly - shocking if you've ever seen her or heard her talk). I don't advocate accepting anything your spouse might do or accepting anything less than what you judge to be acceptable grounds for a renewed relationship just to put yourself through a spiritual test. As you point out in your analogy, there's always a positive to focus on in any situation if you are so inclined, but proactively choosing to put yourself in healthy situations is far better for you than using PMA as a reactive defense mechanism. I think we have all, for our own reasons, have made the decision to stick it out. The best way to cope with a less than desireable situation is to find value and meaning in the experience and in so doing not acknowledge the pain or the cause of the pain.
I make a distinction between hope and a rigid worldview. I think you can hope for something without expectation - and in so doing not experience dissapointment when you don't get what you are hoping for. It's a risky game, because hoping does become a bit of an investment. I find that fixing that hope to something more abstract is a healthier way of doing this, because instead of finding faults in the details of what you get, you are better able to fit what you actually receive into the abstract thing you hoped for than the specific. When you try and control your world and your position in it by creating a rigid structure for how people *should* act and judge them, you create first a lot of pain in yourself because people don't act the way you think they should because you are too subjective to know what that objective should really looks like. Secondly, you judge yourself equally harshly when you judge others (because you are really judging the portion of yourself that is reflecting the actions of another) and you hurt because you recognize that you don't live up to your standards of what people should do either. This is painful. I think it's possible to accept that you don't know what the universe should be like, you can only experience how it is and still hope things will turn out good for you in whatever area of your life you are hoping for change in. I don't think this causes pain.
The concept of the gateless gate resonates with me here. It's basically about achieving enlightenment, and how once this has been done you realize that you had it all along (but I am going to apply it to happiness rather than enlightenment). Passing through a gate into a different state, turning around and realizing the boundary is not really there - nothing separates you from where you were before. The attachment of happiness to a material object (or a spiritual one for that matter) always makes your happiness contingent on something and puts it just out of reach. The truth is that it is always there, and the hint that you got that happiness can be gained through that object or the possession of it is actually happiness in the moment, and it was experienced without the satisfactiong of the anticipation of possessing that object. And all too often, when you finally do get what you thought would bring you happiness, you're let down. If you can accept that you are happy, that you possess the ability to be happy all along, you just focus on it or are aware of it in certain stimulating situations, you can separate it from an external stimulus and look to the true nature of it within the self. It really comes from appreciation and perspective. It's the choice to appreciate something that makes desiring to possess it feel like it will bring happiness. The act of appreciating it is a happy act, the desire to possess the object is a result of our fear of losing that happiness. It eventually kills the feeling of happiness because we are fixating on the fear. If we recognize that we never lose the ability to appreciate, we fear the loss of happiness less because that happiness is always with us. Overcoming our fear is ultimately what allows us to live meaningful lives. A person consumed with fear is generally a pretty unhappy, unhealthy person because they always put their happiness on the other side of their fears. They are constantly trying to work through fear, to banish it and rid themselves of it, yet they are making it a bigger part of their being. They are amplifying its significance because they are focusing on it. Within this is the choice to hand all of their personal power to fear by waging war with it.
I've read somewhere about the difference between people who are motivated to succeed and those who would rather avoid failure. The difference is profound in their consciousness because or what they use to motivate them. Which personality type do you really think is happier?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Yes, we are fearing something that's lost already. I think that whether we are through the worst of it or not is up to the individual. If you build a huge amount of expectation that things will return to what they were or that they'll become something specific, you'll likely hurt a whole lot more. If you are able to truly accept the uncertainty of the situation, then you might not.
Yes, I have no doubt we remember our history selectively as well. We need to give ourselves reason to put ourselves through this, right? I have read in countless places that as long as one spouse fights for the marriage and hangs on saying it was great or worthwhile, etc, the other spouse lets it go. As counter intuitive as it sounds, if we were to all of a sudden start to talk about how horrible the marriage was with our spouse and how happy we are that we're getting out of this rotten mess, I think it will give them pause and they might turn around and defend it, even just a little bit.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I personally think that it would be the people that are motivated to succeed. However that is just my opinion. I feel if you are motivated to succeed you do not worry about failing because you are too focused on a goal that is set in front of you and trying to achive that goal no matter what the outcome is. Avoiding failure, is almost stating that your are afriad to fail. We all fail at some point in our lives and most if not all of us fail at things more than we succede at them. However the strong and wise one learns from that and moves on so that they can achive their goal. Kind of like the Cheeseless tunnel Idea. You will eventually find what ever it is you are looking for. At this point in time we are all just looking for some type of happiness in our lives. Whateer that might be.
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
I wrote," A car heading straight for a wall gives me the opportunity to test dealing with my fear, but it might be smarter to jump out of the car." In hindsight, MAYBE HITTING THE BRAKES MIGHT BE WISER! With that kind of thinking it's no wonder my M is a mess No time to read posts right now but I will be back!
Quote: As counter intuitive as it sounds, if we were to all of a sudden start to talk about how horrible the marriage was with our spouse and how happy we are that we're getting out of this rotten mess, I think it will give them pause and they might turn around and defend it, even just a little bit.
Muddle-
Do you know if this has been practiced? How would one even approach the subject since R talk is discouraged by the LBS? It is a great thought but it seems almost like is unapproachable.
M-35 going on 15 D-8 S- 3 yrs ex-CL(w)- 30
D over one year
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be. Douglas Adams "Just Be"
I think a good part of this is listening really well and validating what is being said by the WAS. They expect us to defend the relationship. We want to. Part of the affair dynamic is having something to push against. It helps create the intensity of the feelings. If you go in the direction that they push and don't push back they are off balance. Think of it as emotional aikido! Use their momentum against them by doing the opposite of the reaction they are trying to get out of you. Eventually, you might even use this to proactively change their world.
I think also GAL and moving on says this through actions. It says that I'm moving on and I accept this situation as it is and I'm moving on. The cheating spouse has so much self esteem tied up in external validation that they don't want to lose you, no matter how much they say they do. If you make them pursue you to get you to resist them leaving, you gain an advantage.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Wouldn't that just add fuel to the flame as well. Making them think that they are right? By sticking around and showing love through actions atleast we are still putting doubt in their mind about their desicions they are making. Even if they do not show it. I know the other day when I was wrestling with my kids in the front room of our house before the W went to work. She had to stop and stare. I think that she ws seeing how good of a foather I ws but that is just what went through my mind. Who knows what she was thinking but I was showing love through my actions of playing with the kids and atleast it made her hesitate and think for a minute.
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
Quote: Yes, I have no doubt we remember our history selectively as well. We need to give ourselves reason to put ourselves through this, right? I have read in countless places that as long as one spouse fights for the marriage and hangs on saying it was great or worthwhile, etc, the other spouse lets it go. As counter intuitive as it sounds, if we were to all of a sudden start to talk about how horrible the marriage was with our spouse and how happy we are that we're getting out of this rotten mess, I think it will give them pause and they might turn around and defend it, even just a little bit.
This is so true that it seems to me the more we fight to save it the more they resist. My situation while still young compared to some of you veterans...I constantly find this...I get up the strength/resolve to push away and stop trying to fight the situation and the W senses this and then she sucks me back in and gives me hope and then I start trying again and she pulls away and says she needs space. I am finding it so hard not to get pulled back in...I pull away...I feel strong...she starts feeding me emotion and affection...something I am truly longing for inside and I start this sick cycle over again of trying to give it back to her only for her to resist.
It happenned to me just this weekend...sunday I decided that I was going to watch the football games out of the house...nowhere in particular...did not tell her where I was going...just really wanted to get away because I was feeling a little sorry for myself and did not want to do that in front of her...well she tells me she wants me to stay and just veg on the couch together and watch...that is nice but I think I will probably go out...of course a few minutes later she comes up to me and gives me the most passionate kiss I have experienced in a month...well of course now I am staying...she flippin pulls my strings like a puppet to get her way...she knows how that will affect me. I am not sure if it is real or not or if she is just that manipulative.
This is probably the main reason I am forcing a separation in my case...I just can't take being around her all of the time...I cannot detach if I am constantly in her presence. I do good for hours/days at a time but then I see her and I start falling in love again and start feeling needy for affection...she is willing to give me affection to a limit but it is almost not real because I know the OM is what is constantly on her mind. I know if I could truly detach and stop feeding her any love/attention she would come seeking me and looking for it from me. At this point I just do not have the strength to play that game as well as I need to. With us being apart I think I might be able to do it a little better. She constantly tells me to give her space but when I do she comes seeking me for some attention and of course I probably go overboard...I guess it is a positive that I realize I am doing this and realize what is happenning, now the hard part of trying to control the situation better.
I really need to GAL...I have been better about that but it is still not really good enough as I look for attention from her far too often. I know I need to let her chase me and not give in so easily. One reason I would kind of like to start seeing other women...even though she says she wants me to do this I know it would bother her...maybe she wants to be bothered by it so she can desire me more?
As for history I agree both sides paint a selective picture that fits their side of situation as they see it...but I don't know if that is 100% true...I acknowledge we had problems in our marriage but I just can't see why problems can't be fixed...everyone can learn to do things better so some of the same things are no longer problems. The WAS seems to take the stance as everything is FUBAR and cannot be fixed...too late to change anything...I don't want to try...etc...seems hard to fight that mentality. I guess the way to fight it is to just give in and agree and make changes in yourself...it is so fruitless to try to convince the WAS to change...any hint of that and they pull away farther.
At least in my case my WAS still fights any notion that the OM is part of the problem. I have stopped fighting this battle because it is pointless but I truly believe that if the OP was not in any of our situations things would not be as bad. The OP feeds our WAS...gives them false relief...a fantasy land to escape too...I just do not know how to compete with fantasy land when I live in the real world. Another reason I want my W out...let her actually live in the real world...with bills...a job...real problems...let the escape of the OP become less of an escape when they can see them any time and it does not become special and anticipated...let the OP deal with my W all of the time and let her vent on him sometimes...let the fantasy A become more real...
In the end I keep telling myself is this worth fighting for? What am I fighting for? As much as I love my W do I want her back? How will it ever be good again? How does it go from this totally messed up situation to something healthy again...it just does not seem possible sometimes...but then I see other on this board who have managed to do it...I don't know...my plan is to drift with the tide...stop swimming against it...let it carry me where it will...
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
Quote: One reason I would kind of like to start seeing other women...even though she says she wants me to do this I know it would bother her
I brought that up to my wife in one of my break downs...I asked her what she would think If I just went out and got laid. She was quite for a second and said she would be pised but she could not really say anything about it. That is why I am almost agreeing with you on the sitch to just act like you are moving on and let them come back to you. I know "Act" is really not the word I was looking for because we are really moving on to better ourselves. It just takes time to realize what we want in our lives. Yes WE still LOVE our W's very much but how much pain in torment can one guy take before he says screw it and moves on. I would love to be the OM in my wifes life right now. She is a very beutiful woman with a great personality but I just can be there for her because she has someone else. Everyone say that the OM does not matter but I agree with you. If the OM was not there feeding her all of the BS she wants to hear then it would be easier for her to focus on what she wants plus be a lot less stress on the LBS.
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
