It doesn't bother me, it's just strange. At lunch, she wants to talk about it, basically telling me that she doesn't like the fact that I didn't (and generally don't in the way she thinks I ought to) take responsibility for participating in the negative interactions. So blaming me for not taking the blame is her way of trying to help me ease her discomfort because whenever she feels bad, it's my fault because I contributed to the situation and therefore am responsible - even if it's admittedly only the smallest amount it allows her to avoid looking at her own input. Warped. Projection. I told her that I want to entirely take the emotion out of our conversations. I wanted to agree that when we talk about business, we don't let emotion come into it at all. She said she doesn't know how she can do that because I make her feel such and such when we talk about anything. I told her I thought that if we agreed we would just get done what needed to be done without putting our emotion into it, we might do a lot better. She thought that this was my way of blaming her for the incident. I told her I wasn't concerned with blame, but rather just wanted to try and solve a something that was a clear issue by way of an agreement to both change our perspective. There's no way to get around this childish baiting. I just want to live my life and here she is creating all sorts of stuff, blaming me for hurting her left and right. If you don't care about someone, they don't hurt you. She wants me out of her life so bad, yet she's so attached, constantly talking about how badly I hurt her and make her feel stupid or childish, etc.
This is what still has me so baffled. She wants to be done, start a new relationship, etc, yet she continues to interact with me in the capacity of husband/wife. I am past that, trying to detach and just coexist without causing each other pain, and she is so attached that she perceives my every action as something harmful to her, and thinks I should change to stop her pain. This is what I keep seeing as her trying to get me to become a better husband to her because she doesn't want to detach, she wants things to change to meet her expectations so that she ceases to hurt. She fails to recognize that the only way to stop this pain is to take responsibility for what is under her control, her expectations. I can't and at this point I won't change just to make her more comfortable through the remaining days we have left. I'm on track working on myself and my life in a proactive way. It seems she's saying to me "I'm leaving you because I don't like you and I've found someone far better, but please do change to make my life more pleasant while we're still a part of each other's life."
It seems to me that a cheating spouse has something wrong with their idea of what a relationship should be. They expect the relationship to do something for you rather than it being a safe place where you can be yourself and improve yourself and realize yourself. So then isn't there something wrong with trying to prove that we can change to better fulfill our cheating spouses when what they are looking for as far as fulfillment is fantasy? It isn't something that comes out of a real relationship. So, in a sense it's an exercise in futility. I guess on some level, you're just proving that you're capable of change in a way that allows for healthy compromise, but the selfish mindset of a WAS won't recognize that because compromise requires taking responsibility.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: They expect the relationship to do something for you rather than it being a safe place where you can be yourself and improve yourself and realize yourself.
Shouldn't a R be both? Shhouldn't expect that someone shows you that they love you instead of just being able to accept that it is a safe place. I think this is what got me into my sitch. The W and I quit sharing and loving each other because we never thought anything could come between us and evetually we fell apart. Basically we took everything for granted and pushed each other away. I have accepted my faults and appologized for them but she is not really taking any blame because she is having fun in her fantasy world that she has created for herself. I mean right now she gets the best of both worlds...A night in shinning armor in the OM and the a great father that makes sure all of the bills are paid for her. No matter what I feel. That is why I am just trying to find my oldself and prove to her that there is still love there that we have and that it just needs re-kindled. However it is really hard to do when there is another person filling the needs that I so desperately want to fill again. All I need is a chance to prove myself and then I think we will be able to reconcile. Don't know just my 2 cents.
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
I'm not sure what I said really did justice to the point I was trying to make. I'm of the opinion that my W expects our relationship (or the person in my role in our relationship) to make up for her difficiencies. Some of the issues she has with me have been that I haven't effectively acted as an extension of her - she's got issues with social anxiety disorder, so when we are in a situation where social interaction must take place, she knows what she wants said and done, but I am expected to execute it, and of course I can't do it the way she would so she feels let down by me, and by herself for allowing her fear to prevent her from doing what she could have done well. So, I'm to blame for not executing properly what I should have. I may be happy with how I handled the interaction, but she's not because she's got her own issues invested in it deeper down, and she won't address these because she's got me to blame. So now she's got this person who is so into her because he's getting to feel the way he wants to feel that she doesn't feel the insecurity, but rather the total acceptance of this other person. This is a substitute for real self esteem - external validation. This allows her not to change, but yet to FEEL differently about herself. This is the sense that I mean she's looking for the relationship to do something for her. I accept her for who she is and love her unconditionally. I can't make her feel like a better person than she does because her issues lie in her own self knowledge and self image. I can't make her feel differently about herself because I can't take responsibility for her self image. It's out of my control.
The other part of this is that in a stage 1 relationship, the feelings of love are passively experienced. There's no work involved, and things come naturally. So in a sense that other person just being in your life gives you a rush of self worth and euphoria. Your brain chemistry is altered, and it seems that in a lot of cases this medicates the depression a lot of these people were experiencing beforehand. So, in this sense also the relationship is doing something for the person who somewhat passively is engaged in it. Now when you look at a stage 2 relationship, you have two people who are living their own lives together. The feelings of support and growth and stability, etc are all there, but the sensations associated with a stage 1 relationship are not there. The expectations on the relationship are different, even if it can be equally rewarding. Both parties need to carry their own weight now to have a successful relationship. Both parties need to be responsible for their happiness and life, even if they have the input of their partner. I think this is why the word partner appeals to me, because it's not about having someone to save you or complete you, but rather about having someone be your equal and share life's joys and sorrows with, and whose input into your own self growth is indespensable because through your intimacy, their knowledge of your inner workings and their perspective on you and your life is trusted and valued.
Both parties have to be dedicated to their path and responsible for this - yet together you have more resources for being effective at this. You are also accountable to someone else. This to me is real love, to accept each other totally, faults and all, and disregard your immature expectations, but work together under agreements for the true benefit of each other, not under the auspices of fixing or completing or saving the other. True equality. Not forcing change by inspiring fear, but by advancing the good in the other and self through love. The healthy relationship does not come out of selfish need, but rather out of love for oneself, life and the other.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, she will take everything and twist it into whatever she needs it to be. It has to be your fault otherwise she has failed and is weak etc. That ain't gonna happen! Try and let it roll off your back and stick to keeping the emotion out of decision making, as you said earlier. Emotion is when the violence starts, don't go there. Hang in there guy!
I have no trouble keeping the emotion out of my side of our interactions. This process seems to highlight an emotional imbalance in her life. She seems to feel like her emotional being has been stifled and now she's experiencing it as she's entitled to. It's her compass for everything. She exists totally in this emotional world and it seems she can't use other parts of her being except in a secondary capacity to her emotions. I will continue to be strong in making my decisions rationally and not in response to W's feelings. If only I could learn to respond to W's emotions in a way that doesn't allow her to escalate in response to my response, but also doesn't compromise my perspective. That's a utopian dream if you ask me!
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
The weekend was quiet. Not much to report. Things are much the same, W blaming me and making things as unpleasant as possible. I was openly enjoying the beautiful day and she sat there in the car pouting, then proceeded to complain about how I handled something or other. Who cares? Just be happy. I am, and I prefer to be happy around others who are, but I will be happy regardless.
It's kind of a weird time right now, like I'm sitting in anticipation of a real nasty storm, not sure which way it's going to come from, or how it's going to present. I am thankful for the opportunity this situation has presented me with, because I have been able to make many mistakes and actually be self-aware enough to look at my participation in them and change. Hopefully I won't make the same mistakes again. Not just relationship mistakes, but personal character mistakes. Not only have I worked on myself for the sake of my next relationship, but I have really changed some key aspects of my self for the better. I feel like I am conceding defeat here, and in some ways I have finally laid down my weapons - something I probably should have done months ago. The scope of this fight though is far greater than just the current battle.
There's this struggle in me between proving I love my W and just giving it all up. I can't do for her what it takes for her to see that I care. I do care, and on some level she knows that I really do. I will continue to be kind and loving in my own way - whether she wants to acknowledge it or not is her choice. The difficult thing for me is that it does matter more than I'd like it to how she sees me. I know she's choosing to see me as antagonist, and her enemy. I'd like to see that my love and compassion and caring means something in a more universal sense, not just as a means to acheive an agenda, but as something that stands alone in its own right. Unfortunately, the perspective of others is out of my control, or even influence, and I have to accept things as they are.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I think on some level, she will recognize your attempts to be caring and loving, but it just may not be now or in the near future. She's so caught up in herself and her own twisted interpretations that nothing gets in on the conscious level but deep inside, I believe it's there. That kept me going in my sitch sometimes, no matter how much my W did not acknowledge my gestures etc I had faith (and still do) that somewhere they lie inside her maybe to be discovered on another day, at another time. Who knows. When love goes in it must come back out in some way, that's my theory anyway. Today, you live to make yourself a better person, Muddle (and you seem pretty damn good already). That's all you can do.
Just got back from our first therapy session. It was sort of interesting, trying to explain the situation and our perspectives on it as well as our history together in a short 45 minutes. I let my W talk a lot without my interuption. I think she's very comfortable with the therapist, so that's a good thing.
The theme that I kept hearing from her is that of being trapped, feeling that she's treated like a child (that I'm parenting her) and that there's this yet undetermined personal significance that ending this relationship has to her. It's a little strange that we talked about this, because it seems that she's still seeking justification, or feels the need to justify ending things, and I still sort of have the need to express that I think it's not the right thing to do, even though I acknowledged my acceptance that it is over and that there are likely better people out there for me to be with.
The therapist acknowledged that we both have a lot of resentment, and that this is likely escalating the slightest conflict into something more like an argument. It's really upsetting to me though that I walked away from that session feeling like our relationship really is salvageable, but now my questions are about whether I really want it any more. I do and I don't. I guess I need to drop all of my expectations and just try and learn whatever I can from this opportunity and let things develop into whatever they will. I do have to say that before we left to go I was thinking "what is our goal here? What are we trying to accomplish?" because it's a bit difficult to let go of the save-this-marriage-at-all-costs perspective. I have a hard time putting things in the perspective of "how would I approach this if the affair weren't a part of it?" It's a difficult proposition, because it complicates everything. I can't really know for sure how my my stubborn will to survive this is clouding my sensibilities. I guess more time will tell. I just have to keep my mind open, and look out for the good of my boy.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
The how would you handle the situation without the affair? It is a good question. It is often something I think about in my situation. My W often contends that her unhappiness and leaving has nothing to do with the A. I contend that if the A was not in the picture I think I could accept us being separated and working on our marriage from a distance. The A is really the big problem for me...it is what makes me lose my mind. I think I would be far more respecting and have a lot more will to work on our marriage if there was no A.
I think we are in similar situations in our relationships...I really feel if I DB and give my wife some space and just really try I could win her back but then part of me does not know if I really want that? Do I want her back...will she cheat again...will she ever truly be happy with me...can we ever get past the hurt we have caused each other? Am I better off just trying to start new with someone else? Is the marriage worth saving? I do still love her...but I need her to give me love back...
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
Good point, SRT. Sometimes I look at my W now and wonder what there is left to love! I won't go on a rant as to how my W has changed but sometimes I really wonder "do I want her back"? How does the sweet, gentle, loyal person I married turn into the resentful, depressed, unfaithful shell of the person she was. Beats me how it happens, I almost wish I could take the entire blame myself then it would at least be understandable.
