Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Muddle's Waters IV

Good article - very important things to be reminded of.

My H's in some weird place where nothing's anyone's fault, our relationship has just 'run its course', we just 'don't have enough in common', blah blah blah... I don't think he's even apologised for having an affair. Oh no wait, he claimed it only started a week after he told me he wanted a D. Phew, that's okay then.

Muddle,
Good article. Alot to think about. It is hard to compete with a fantasy. In the midst of my H's affair, he said a lot of mean things to me too. It made me feel like crap. I now realize that he was trying to justify things in his head. I backed off and he now seems to be coming around.

If getting a D is not what YOU want, then don't initiate it. Let your W hurl her angry words at you and let them roll off your back. You know in your heart they are not true and you are a good person. Focus on being the best person that you can be, for yourself and your son. After a while I bet your W will come to see you for who you really are. She will be amazed that you stood by her even when she was so awful. Hang in there bud!

I still don't want a D, and I still hope my W and I can work things out.

She's still really fighting to get me to meet her expectations regarding what she thinks is normal behavior, and isn't accepting me as I am (which to me means she still wants things to work on some level). I do still try and keep an open mind to what she's trying to tell me regarding opportunities for self improvement:
W calls and asks me if I can run her over to the store at lunch time. I asked her if there's no way she can walk there before lunch (it's about 3 blocks away) and she gets upset with me, telling me that she would have just done that if she wanted to, and that she doesn't have a car, and that if I didn't really want to take her for whatever reason I should have just said that. Now, I didn't mean to imply that I didn't want to take her, I am and was willing to do so, and I told her so before I said anything about her walking. I simply thought that it would be a more efficient use of time for her to walk and get done what she needed (she needs to get cards - not something heavy) without having to worry about whether she was taking too long for me. On the other hand though, on some level I am concerned about the fact that I have to get back to work after lunch and that I have little time as it is to take care of what I need to, so I should have refused because of that. Either way, I was wrong and she contributed her wrong to the situation too. There's always something to learn here, but it's difficult to maintain PMA and objectively view a situation while feeling like I'm always on the defensive. I need more time and space to cultivate myself. Maybe we'll be in better positions to discuss reconciliation after that happens. Oh yeah, and the affair has to end too.

Muddle, my grandfather used to just turn off his hearing aid when he was around my grandmother. Too bad we're not old enough to take advantage of this little trick

Oh my god muddle. I have the same problem as you do. I didm't/don't know how to say no (learning how to do that these days). I always figured it was my "job" to say yes to my W and consequently, she now expects that anything she desires for me to do, I will without hesitation, because as you and I know, hesitation is almost as bad as "f-you honey I hate you and won't do a damn thing for you."

Muddle, we need to learn how to simply say no without all the gyrations we go through to justify ourselves either to her or us. Damn, I really think NORMAL people say no to each other all the time without a care in the world simply because, well, they want to. More than that, I believe the "normal" people they're married to accept this not as a personal affront but rather, well, a perfectly valid answer to be given to a yes or no question.

I am not saying you just say "no" to her without so much as a reason, but this thing we both do, feeling bad when we want to say no, is not right.

Muddle, I know I am being extreme. I know you say no all the time but what I am getting at is that both of our wives seem to have this ability to expect certain behaviors from us even though they are doing nothing to "earn" those behaviors. Sure, we love them and will do for them out of that love but in a sitch like ours, that doesn't, SHOULDN'T go as far as it did before all this.

Hell, we may have been "whipped" before but dammit if we should whip ourselves. Last time I checked we don't even have one of those things we get whipped by...lol.

GH

Thanks for the solidarity, brother! I don't know why you had to bring the "thing that shall not be named" into the mix, as I've done pretty well keeping that out of the picture! Anyway, just wanted to go further with developments on the issue I wrote about this morning. I called W from the school to ask her to be ready so that when I came by she could run out and we could go to the store together. She was really angry and basically told me she didn't want to go now because I had hurt her feelings. I tried to explain that I had no problem going, but she didn't want to, so I accepted that as well. Well, I got home and she was still upset. She went on to tell me that I made her feel dumb, like I thought that she couldn't think of going to the store herself by herself. I told her that had nothing to do with my asking the question, I asked the question because I was thinking about the ideal use of my time. "There you go, you're always thinking about yourself." I told her that I understood why she had hurt feelings. I made myself very clear that my question had nothing to do with her abilities, it was an idea I threw out there. I told her I was sorry she was feeling the way she was and again I acknowledged that I understood why she would. She got annoyed because I wasn't taking responsibility for how she was feeling. She said that I made her feel that way, "cause/effect." Well, how do you argue with that? It's so clear to me that her feelings of inadequecy are right under the surface in all her interactions with me. This is why she always feels like I am her father - because she doesn't feel like she's on my level. I am sure I do things that contribute to her feeling this way, but I don't view her in this way and if she interprets my actions as doing so, it's her issue, not mine. I don't know how I can relate to someone who doesn't realize their involvement in creating their emotions. It's like the basic premise for controlling the other person is that cause and effect principle of my actions causing her hurt. All she has to be is hurt and it's my fault. The trouble is that she has a huge part in fostering that hurt. If she doesn't realize that (I have to say that on some level she absolutely does because she's manufacturing a lot of feelings just to keep herself where she is) then whhat kind of future could we possibly have? Is this her personality, or is it something that she can quickly grow out of? What can I do to address this and bring about change? What are the implications for my son? I don't want him to be raised thinking he's responsible for his mother's feelings, that's totally inappropriate.

OMG Muddle, are you a puppet-master to this woman. Does she experience ANYTHING in her life that is not directly caused by you? Seriously, reading your posts, this woman is more into you than most of our wives ever were or ever will be. She seems totally dependent on you for everything, including her feelings.

Geezus. Muddle, I think for her sake but mostly for YOUR sake, you need to step back from this process and REALLY look at how you interact with her. You need to give her a chance to see how she actually lives without the emotional umbilical cord you provide all her feelings and emotional well/mal-being through.

I think you do this by refusing to get into conversations that involve how she feels because of you, or how she feels because of what you did, say, or plan to do. If she says you're being selfish again, agree with her and then walk away. If she screams at you, let her. She's obviously going to blame you for everything no matter what anyway so why not just stop trying to explain yourself. Stop validating her. Stop INVALIDATING her. Stop participating in the situation where you do either.

You asked how she will change from being this way. Well, I can't answer that, but I can say that what you've been doing hasn't worked so maybe it's time to change something in you instead of trying to change something in her.

Stop trying to understand her, even if it's for the purpose of validating her. Stop falling into her emotional traps. Stand strong and realize that your son may go through some stuff but YOU can help make that better by being stable and "even" when it's obvious that your W is not going to be for awhile.

Then, maybe after some time has past and she can look back at you without the sh!t colored glasses, i.e. she learns that life is crap without you as much as with you , then maybe there will be room and impetus for change. Until then, I think she will likely just keep leaning on you literally until the day you walk away...because I doubt she ever will.

Muddle, you know I don't say these things lightly. I am ALWAYS the last one to say walk away, and I am not really saying that to you, but on some level, I think you have to in order to truly give her the room she needs to change...or not.

GH

I do that too Muddle. It's kind of thinking out loud and the W thinks you see her as stupid. My W gets furious when she's driving and I say "Oh, make a right up here" cuz she knows where she's going (and she does). I try not to do it. Maybe it is some kind of control mechanism we have and don't realize. When you say "Wouldn't it be quicker to go yourself" it leaves the impression that she isn't smart enough to think of that herself (in her mind). So really you are concerned about your time but masking it as concern for "getting it done quicker" and her time. That may be how she sees it. But, on the flip side if you say "I'm short on time so would it be OK if you just walked to get it today?" it leaves you open to the old "you only think of yourself". So, bottom line is which bad ending are you most comfortable with? Wow, it must be so tough having to watch every interaction! I'd be wanting to say "OK, lets both agree that I am a selfish, inconsiderate bastard who has no regard for your feelings, therefore it never needs to be said again" but that's kind of how I get myself into trouble sometimes!
Last thought here: there is always a legitimate basis to her complaints but what happens is we, as good H's, put too much thought into their legitimacy. Personally, I'm very open to looking at my "inadaquacies" but each minor thing is not the issue, she will always find another. It's a matter of accepting that you and I are not perfect and moving on without guilt. So what if you were thinking of yourself in this instance, you've got the right! It will just be something else next time. They can drag you down bit by bit if you really absorb all their complaints. It then becomes easy to feel inadaquate and undesirable. Don't do it, I'll try not to on my end as well!!!

I completely agree.

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You asked how she will change from being this way. Well, I can't answer that, but I can say that what you've been doing hasn't worked so maybe it's time to change something in you instead of trying to change something in her.

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Stand strong

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This says it all. I need to stop complying with her demands that I change. I have been compliant since I met her, and this has never worked. I think you are absolutely right that I need to back off. She needs to grow, and she's doing all she can right now to avoid doing so. I will back off completely (even though I feel like I have for the most part already), and even initiate a physical separation as soon as financially possible. She claims to hate her dependance - but does nothing about it. Nothing I can really do about that, now, is there? I don't force this on her, it's her choice.