Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Afterall...This IS my Life

Heather,

Limbo is a really tough place to be and it sounds like you are there. I can literally feel the weariness in your words. I was kinda hoping that all the friend experiences that seemed to be popping up would give you energy, as its clear you desperately need an emotional burst. But then again, getting ALL your emotional energy and support outside your M is a dangerous place to be too. It is a slippery slope that leads you to gradually spend more and more and more time elsewhere.

Your statement about innocence lost is very true and one of the hardest things to deal with emotionally. Before my A, even though things were not going well, I could more easily ignore them. My M had this rosy glow of innocence that covered any thoughts of the emptiness underneath. That rosy glow is gone, for better or worse.

I think it is clear what has to happen. Take GEL for example. From the moment the discovered the offence, she was very proactive and desiring to fix the situation, increase communication, and work through all issues. That is not to say that she didn't have moments where things were unclear, but it was clear from her words that she had decided to do what it took to make things better, no matter how hard those things were. I think if the offended spouse doesn't take that attitude, it is very difficult for the offending spouse to move the situation forward. That is not to say that the offended spouse should instantaneously jump on the "let's make this better bandwagon", but eventually that commitment has to be made, or a decision that things are not going to work out.

Note that I am not bashing your H here. I think he is still confused by the hurt still in his heart and not acting in a rational way (which is understandable, I know ALL ABOUT not acting rationally). But if he doesn't decide himself that things are going to move forward, you are probably going to be stuck in limbo for the rest of your life, a very difficult place to be. I really hope (and pray) that doesn't happen for you and that somehow he will find the courage to start taking positive steps forward with you, whether that is the house, or the wedding ring, or sleeping in bed, or hopefully all three and many more.

I'm rambling b/c I am really tired, so I'll stop.

Best wishes
Chrome

Chrome,

What you are saying to Heather, is IMPO...correct. Heather, it's true...you made a mistake in your M, you know it...your H knows it, no need to rehash right? Your H has also made some big mistakes in the M.

BOTH of you in many ways are the offended spouses (as Chrome put it) in this M....BOTH of you need to commit to making this work and BOTH of you need to be pro-active in moving things forward. I don't believe one spouse can mend a marriage, it's going to take both.

I get this feeling that both of you are waiting for the other to somehow make this grand gesture towards the other that things WILL get better and that you are whole-heartedly committing to your M, but neither of you are seeing that. So, neither of you are wholeheartedly committing. You have done what you feel you can I believe but your H still holds you at arms length, that's frustrating for you (and of course it would be.), so you get tired of trying when it doesn't appear he's doing anything. Your H...seems to be waiting for something from you to show him that you have true remorse and will NEVER do this to him again. However, he's not telling you what it is that he needs you to do, so you have little chance of giving him what he needs (just as frustrating and scary for him.) It's really hard (speaking from my own experience here) to put your trust back in someone and be vulnerable enough to have a good relationship with them...when you are still afraid that you are going to have to endure that horrible pain again in the future. This I think adds to his sense of entitlement of "you hurt me, now you owe me." and it doesn't help.

Just my 2-cents here....but you two are planning on building a house together, big step right? Personally, I believe you need to sit down and have a real hear-to-heart with him and work out some type of a pro-active plan towards coming back to each other instead of pulling away (as you are both doing.) Date nights (regular ones), sleeping in the same bed, common courtesy, spending time together...etc, whatever it is. I believe you need to agree to these things before you agree to move into that new house. But that's just me.

New house, new beginning.

GEL

I was looking into that movie some months ago but some internet research on Ramtha and JZ Knight made me cautious: Wikipedia entry

Burgbud, I had a chance to read what was in the link you posted and I wouldn't let it stop you from seeing the movie. I didn't believe everything the movie conveyed and the part where they started talking about religion...well, it didn't make any good sense to me personally. HOWEVER, the part where they talked about emotion was really, really interesting and totally worth watching if only for that. Let me see if I can relay some of it....they were talking about 'peptides' in the brain, chains of amino acid proteins as I understood it, and they said that there is an amino acid for every emotion....lust, sadness, anger, victimization, etc. The brain releases these amino acids into the bloodstream where receptors (like little docking stations) on cells can be penetrated. The really interesting part is how cells can become 'immune' to certain peptides because over time, the cells split and because of years of 'training', i.e. emotional abuse to ourselves, the cells eventually contain fewer and fewer of the receptors it needs for certain peptides to penetrate. Thus, if you don't change your paradigm, you will get the same results, your brain will always make the same connections and cause the same old feelings. Now, I don't pretend to understand the scientific validity of all of this, but it rang true to me regardless and I thought about depression in particular. It is easy to see how difficult it could be to break free of negative thought patterns if you've been holding onto them for years....you literally have to re-train your brain and break all those old connections and start forming new ones based on new thought processes.
Wow. I thought the implications were pretty phenomenal! I was way interested in it and hope to read some more on it.

I need to think a little more before I post responses for GEL and Chrome. Thanks for checking in on me.

Heatherg

A great book I am reading is called "The Genetic Inferno" by John Medina you may want to look into it. It covers the link between genes and behavior using the seven sins as a launching pad for discussion of ideas.

H came home last night. I was filled with anxiety about it, and that probably set the stage for how it went honestly.
I was sleeping on the couch and knew I was going to have to get up and move when he got home because he'd be bringing all his stuff in the house and probably wouldn't want to go to bed right away. But when it was time for me to get up and move I got overwhelmed with emotion.....I don't WANT to sleep somewhere else GD it! I am kicked out of my bed and the couch is where I feel most comfortable. I hate shutting myself into the computer room where I can't hear the kids if they wake, etc. So, I couldn't even say anything to him. I just got up and went in the room and shut the door. Laid there. Couldn't calm myself enough to be able to go to sleep. So I came out and just poured out to H. We are no better for it but no worse either. It became evident, really evident, to me last night how difficult it is for me to live like I am living.....I will get back into the swing of things again just like always, but it's difficult to go from making my own decisions to being thrust back into a situation that goes against how I feel.
Since H has been gone and S5 has started Kindegarten, I've changed his bedtime to 9:30, i.e. he is in bed ready to sleep at 9:30 and H doesn't like it and has expressed his intentions to go back to the way things were which is S5 not getting into bed to sleep until 10pm and then is allowed to get up 2-3 times after that so 10:30 is usually the time he actually gets to sleep.
The house is a real dilemma for me....we cannot stay stuck where we are but yet to pour our hearts and souls into building our new home only to have to sell it is foolish. But my sense is that if I ask for a commitment for new beginning from him, he will not give it. That leaves me with choices I don't want to make.

Ugh. I read back over my post and I sound so mopey! So, I had to come back and add a few positive notes. S5 is doing great in kindegarten and he's playing flag football too. He is sooo cute, watching him play is like the highlight of my day. He really likes it, although it's quite obvious he doesn't love it. I'm hoping it continues to grow on him as he learns more and gets better. I think team sports are so important for a child, but would never force it. That's why I hope he comes around all on his own
D3 is always the life of the party. She is so innocently sociable.....at football practice, she'll take her chair and go sit with other people just to visit. This weekend, I took them to Wendy's and she saw someone she knows from preschool, so she just goes over and sits down and starts talking. It's adorable.

I test for orange belt a week from today, yippee! I can finally get rid of my yellow belt, although I'm sort of gonna miss it, lol.

Heather,

What would happen if you just stopped sleeping in another room and just went to bed in YOUR bed? You have now spoken your piece about how you feel about this to him, at least I think that's what you did. So now, stop tolerating it.

I guess the way I see it is this...you've paid for your mistakes for quite some time. You've beaten yourself up over it, so has he...at some point as we've stated before you have to say enough is enough right? Well when is that time? You can stop accepting his continued punishment of him and put yourself back in your own bed....if he really doesn't like it, he can sleep on the couch. I have to wonder though how much of a deal he's going to make over it NOW....he may not like it, but he might accept it at this point. Sometimes you have to push yourself past that comfort point to intiate change...in this case that could mean you putting yourself back in your own bed and him becoming accustomed to that again. In a sense forcing both of you out of your comfort zones.

Also...I'm with you on getting a 5yr old to bed earlier. Kids need their sleep, keeping him up later than he needs to be isn't good for him when it comes to kindergarten the next day. What's your H afraid of...having time alone with YOU? That's the way it appears to me....if your S stays up later then there is a buffer and no "alone time". Whatchya think? Stick to your guns about the bedtime...your H is not the dictator of the household.

GEL

What would happen if you just stopped sleeping in another room and just went to bed in YOUR bed?

Two things. First, he would make it really difficult for me to sleep. He would workout in there late at night (all the workout equipment is in there....did I mention we've outgrown our house?!), he'd probably start watching tv in there. Remember H is a night owl and he would do whatever he could think of to make sure that I don't get enough sleep. He knows eventually I would cave. So, we would never get to the second thing that would happen, but let's just say for conversational purposes that he did leave me alone. He'd never sleep with me again. You have seen how stubborn he can be and don't doubt for a minute that there wouldn't be severe 'consequences' for me sleeping in my bed against his wishes.
I can barely say that I want to sleep in my own bed and that enough is enough without H using my 'attitude' as the perfect example of why I'm *not* sleeping in my own bed. To actually sleep in there without his consent....it's really not an option, at least not one that I would be able to maintain.

I do intend to stick to my guns on the bedtime issue. He resents the hell out of me and it's really hard....I usually just end up pushing for nothing because they won't move toward bed until H is darn good and ready. For instance, they'll be in the middle of a video game or something and H will say 'we're almost done'. Then they'll keep playing until it's bedtime in H's opinion. I've tried making S5 stop playing the game when I said and believe me, it did not go over well with S5. It's not fair to him to put him in the middle like that....when he's got daddy telling him he can finish the game and mommy telling him he has to go to bed now....it just confuses him and last time he was crying and everything else. I felt like a HUGE ogre and I could see the confusion in his eyes, as he genuinely thought I was being mean to him.

I think it's a possibility that H purposely keeps S5 awake so that he'll be a buffer between him and I. And that would go hand in hand with the counselor's opinion that H has problems with intimacy. But honestly, my gut tells me that isn't it. Because, then it wouldn't matter if it was S5 or D3....or both. H very specifically has placed S5 in a position that is, well I don't know. I can't even describe it. All I can say is that it throws the balance off in our house tremendously and he doesn't do it with D3. There is something about S5, I don't know what. Maybe he sees S5 as him when he was younger, I have no idea. But there is something there. He would spend every minute with S5 if he could. He's his best friend, quite simply.

I think I have a better understanding in my heart that H wants me to love him, really love him. He wants me to be able to take that love and dedicate it to doing whatever it takes to repair the M. He said that he feels like I treat him like he is just someone I can 'beat down'. I think if I were in his shoes, having been cheated on, I would want to see an abundance of love coming from them too. Last night I told him that in order to move this M forward, we BOTH have to try. I looked at him and I said "I cheated on you, but you still have to TRY if we want to make this M work. It sucks, it isn't fair, but that's the way it IS". He said "So, I just give you everything you want and then we'll see is that it?"
There's no doubt he's afraid of giving his heart, I can see it. I'm afraid of giving mine too. But for me, the difference is that I know it's what's best for the kids. For us to stay together. In which case, we have to make the best of it. That doesn't mean that my undying love is going to start pouring forth. It means we have to build something worth loving. He doesn't get it. It's like the worst catch 22 I can imagine. He can't try until he sees that I love him, but I can't just manufacture love out of nothing, so we have to try before the love can be grown.

Heather,

Did you say this to him "It's like the worst catch 22 I can imagine. He can't try until he sees that I love him"...and tell him that with his current behavior towards you his own actions are making it very hard for you to show that real love towards him? NO ONE can show true, undying, devoted love when someone behaves towards them as your H does you....unless they are highly dysfunctional themselves. He's put you out in an emotional wasteland yet expects you to manufacture feelings for him from nothing....not gonna happen, I understand that.

The way I see it is telling him this isn't blaming him for everything...empathy holds a lot of weight. If I were to tell my H something like this (or even yours) I would start it by saying stuff like. "I understand why you see things the way you do and how it makes you feel towards me...there are things you need to see before you feel you can make efforts towards me. I on the other hand...cannot get close to you when you keep pushing me away, so it's impossible for me to show you that true devotion that you need...because you won't let me close enough to you to do so. I want to, but this is something we both have to work together on. If you can let down your defenses enough to let me in a little bit at a time maybe you will begin to see what I'm talking about."

Something along those lines....I dont know. You know your H. It's really hard to deal with a control freak, they're hard to get through to.

GEL

Hey GEL,
Proper communication is probably the key at this point. With the right words, over time, we could probably heal for the most part. The 'proper' part is what we still struggle with....with the communication part we've gotten much better...it used to be that we couldn't speak at all. He would walk away or ignore me, etc and when I pushed hard enough to actually make him listen, it was confrontational at that point.
We can actually have a conversation now and H has not disrespected me like that in quite a while now that I think about it. That's a pretty big deal.
I was just thinking that when H and I were first together, I was really affected by his intense moods. If he was upset with me he would ignore me.....I had no idea how to deal with that. At the time, I thought surely that must mean we were just about over then. I always felt really horrible, I mean only someone/something really horrible could create a reaction that intense, right? What I didn't know about my H then that I know now is that his 'consequences' can far outweigh the 'crime'. But back then, I would grovel. I would write letters telling him how sorry I was for whatever it was I did, how much I loved him, that he was my everything and I didn't know how I would survive if I wasn't with him. Eventually, I would be able to 'win' him over. And I would bask in his love again, because that too is very intense (i.e. picture his R with S5). To go from one extreme to the other was more than I had the means to understand and cope with at 17 years old.
I've since read some of those letters that he's kept and to be honest, it kind of makes me sick. I remember the feelings I had when I wrote them...just utter despair. I hate that I was so desperate and so unprepared to deal with situations that H created out of nothing, really. Because he didn't like what I was wearing, because he didn't like something I'd done in my past, etc. I was so surprised, shocked and ashamed at some of the things that he got upset about, I just didn't know what to do.
My point in all of this is that I am so determined to never be that girl again that I think it affects my ability to communicate honestly with him about my feelings. It is hard for me to show him that I am crushed becase I immediately get sick thinking of the weak girl that would have shaved her head if her boyfriend said she should. I know the circumstances are different now, I know that I've actually done something to be chastised for this time, but the feelings that surround my honesty about my feelings are the same.