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Dear KTF,

It's uncanny, our H's behaviors are identical it seems.

Today I had a pretty tough time with my H. It started actually last night when S4 mentioned - in the context of talking about his time with "daddy" - that he had been to the beach w/ H and "a woman". I probed a little bit and couldn't really tell whether it was true - S was so vague and typically can share more details about things. So, I decided to check it out w/ H. He finally called me today at work wondering what my Q was about - so I asked him. He was not convincing, but regardless insisted that he said it wasn't true and that's enough. I asked him if we should get to the point where I meet Ow before S4 does. Oh man, this sent him reeling. He knows that I want to meet Ow before S4 does, I think it's my right to know who is in my S4's life on any regular basis. H thinks I should just "trust his judgement" - Ha! Is he crazy? I told him I don't trust or respect either one of them for what they've done. He launched completely into the extreme - "well, then we shouldn't talk at all". I told him the only reason I talk to him is for our S4's sake and that I will do whatever I have to do to protect S's well-being.

Our conversation also lead to stuff about our R and how I still feel like I'm in shock that we are even at this point - that I still don't understand it. H, very angrily, tries to pass off as much blame onto me - saying I should know why.

After we hung up I felt sick and depressed. I couldn't eat and could barely focus at work. I vow never to talk (or email) him from work! And more than that, I'm going to convey to him that I can't talk to him about our R at all unless we are in our MC's office.

He emailed me later a few times, telling me how "angry, hurt and sad" he was and accusing me of trying to "control" his R w/ S4. He accused me of always taking him for granted and only paying him (our R) lip service.

Why does he bring up our R like that? Is it just because he feels threatened about our S4? I'm so confused Part of me thinks he just wants to keep blaming me and blaming me to justify his own behavior.

I asked him if he is going to marry the Ow. His response was "well, if things go as they are - then yeah". I asked if they were going to have children - he said "no, I highly doubt it - I can't afford it and I don't want to split my time - I want to give my all to S4". Hmmm, I think there's more to that story...

He went on an on about how "kind and genuine" Ow is and how she's always thoughtful, etc. It made me want to throw up! He said he was "in a really good place right now".

He also said, even if the Ow didn't exist he wouldn't want to save our M. Ouch! When I asked him where all his love for me went he said "you've changed a lot". Ugh!

It's truly crazy-making trying to make any sense from his words. It's like he's completely gone - his thinking is so distorted.

I agree with you, I need to 100% detach and GAL. This has to include not talking to him or cooking for him or eating meals with him when he is over to visit S4. I've been trying to protect S4 from H's and my bitternesss toward each other, but I think I'm going to lose it if I have to be so nice to him. I wish I didn't have to talk to him or see him at all! I think I need to do some reading on this.

I hope we can get a MC appt soon - the C seems pretty booked. We need to get in there. H seems to be more open in our sessions.

Yeah, it helps me too knowing you're out there and can understand so well (sadly).

How is you D7 doing? How do you manage day to day?

I agree that your S4 shouldn't be around Ow right now. My C says that until we are divorced that none of our kids should be around Ow. Unfornately he has brought her around his other 2 kids ( my step-kids sd16, ss14 ). I think he is sending the wrong message to them - that is is okay to have Ow when you are still M! They are both old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

My H attempted to have our d7 meet Ow once, but it never happened b/c d called me wanting to come home so I went and picked her up. I didn't know until she got home why she wanted to come home. She later told me that daddy wanted her to meet his friend! This is when we started with the counceling. C has told both of us that until we are divorced that it is wrong to bring other people around the kids. H does what he wants to do so I doubt that he will continue to listen to what the C has to say for much longer. It makes me sick to think of Ow around our d!!!

Someone who would get involved with M man with children lacks character and obviously doesn't care that she helped to destroy a family. I agree that this type of woman shouldn't be anywhere near our kids. WAS will get very angry when you insult the character of Ow. They will defend her and say you are crazy. Yes, they are blaming us for everything to justify what they are doing.

Your H is feeling guilty and this is why he emailed you.
They will say hurtful things. Just remember that yes you may not have been perfect, but neither were they! I told my H how much I think he has changed b/c the man I M would never have done or said the things he has. I asked him what happened to his morals and values that he used to have? He replyed that he still had all of his morals and values and he resented me for insulting his integrity! He said that I don't even know him and never did! He also said that when his father died he realized that I had never been there for him. Ugh! So yes they say lots of stuff to hurt you b/c they are hurting and need to blame someone else. They know having an A is wrong, but the Ow makes them feel good so they go with it . They are self-absorbed right now and can't think past their needs and feelings.

In spite of everything I told H 2 weeks ago that my door was always opened if he ever needed anything. I'm I pathetic or what! But now I am going completely dark unless I have to talk to him about d7. Be kind to your H , but act indifferent and busy whenever you see him.
GAL, GAL, GAL.... I am starting to think of it as this- how would I act towards H if (and this is only an if) I had Om in my life. I would be focused on Om not my H. This way of thinking helps me b/c I think H will get the impression that he is no longer the focus of my life and maybe he will begin to feel like he has lost me???

What do you think?

KTF7

Hi KTF,

I sure wish my H would understand that I don't want to "control" his R w/ S4, but that it's very important that we don't add more confusion to his life. I do think that Ow should not be introduced into S4's life until H and I are divorced.

Instead, H seems to want to pretend that everything is fine, that I should just be happy for him, etc.

I feel like I need to write down some of the craziness that he has spewed on me - it's unbelievable.

Off the top of my head - since bomb dropped 1 year ago..

1. Didn't go to work, went to see Ow, "diappeared" until 9:30-pm and still tried to deny it.
2. gave Ow a (cheap) necklace I helped him pick out at the Renaissance Faire.
3. Started wearing a silver ring with (Goth style) crosses on it - on his wedding finger...said he was "mourning" our R.
4. Disappeared over Thanksgiving - 2 weeks after I kicked him out - drove to L.A. to be w/ Ow. Said he was going to spend holiday w. friend. Didn't return phonecalls.
5. Said he was living w. friend - when I called friend he said he hadn't seen him. Then said he was ashamed to admit he'd been sleeping in his car.
6. Ended up in the ER over Thanksgiving w. panic attack
7. Ended up in ER over Christmas due to bronchitis
8. Spent $400 on doll for Ow - denied it - said $ was for rental deposit.
9. Spent $150 on Gothic clothing website - said it was for a leather jacket (I've yet to see it).
10. He's had flat tires, traffic problems, car impounded
11. empty box of condoms found in briefcase after last Halloween - said he bought them "just in case" but emptied them out.
12. Claims - as recently as 4 mos ago - that he has not had sex w/ Ow.
13. Found Goth website link on my computer - found a pic of him in Goth attire and writings to Ow - professing his love for her.
14. Recently had a case of scabies
15. Some months ago had to have minor surgery to remove execess scar tissue around bronchial area.
16. Found pic of woman from Goth website (not Ow) in his music "library" and Ode to her.
17. Left a stable job for a (seemingly) good opportunity last year - 1 month later quit on the spot - found a new job, got laid off after 2 mos - took another job for 2 wks and ultimately left to take the job he has now.
18. Lies, lies, and more lies!!

Also, these are some of the more confusing statements he's made:

1. Whenever I brought up Divorce - in the beginning months he would say "well, that's not what I want - but if you want that...".
2. In the beginning when I still had our pic's up I asked him if I should take them down and he said "I don't see why".
3. In a MC session he once said "sometimes I think I've made a big mistake".
4. Every time I say "fine, it's over" he finds a way to lure me in. For example, yesterday we talked at work and he said that he thinks he and Ow will eventually get married... then, this afternoon he volunteered "I think i need an anti-anxiety med because last night I was sobbing, shivering, and couldn't sleep."
5. Once, after a MC appt, he said he wished I had read an email he had sent because in it he told me that he missed me and our S4.
6. In our last MC appt with new C he said (after I said it) that he wanted to know what would have happened if we had gotten help before he met Ow.

Oh, you know I could go on but I am exhausted. You get the picture.

The most remarkable thing is - in the face of all that - he still wants to place blame on me.

Last night he was supposed to come over to see S4 and instead left a mssg at 5:15pm saying he wasn't feeling well - he felt "attacked" - but would leave work soon. Then I had to call him at nearly 7 pm to find him - only to have him call me back and say "I'm not coming, I just can't drive".

He showed up tonight for a pre-planned visit while I worked late, but then said he wasn't coming tomorrow but would come on Friday instead. Gee, thanks for the notice!

Ok, I am falling asleep now... gotta go.

Thank you for your insights and support.

MonicaP,

Your H really does sound messed up and definitely confused. Is he in a MLC? Sounds like it to me.

I believe my H is, he is acting completely opposite of the man I once knew. I feel that H's Ow has been in his life for a lot longer than I thought. I think he left me to see if she could make him happier than I could. So far she is obviously doing just that.

I keep waiting for her to show her true colors as they say.
My H's A has been going on for at least 2 years I think.
Long time, way too long. Of course he denys it and has been lying to me and to his family all along. He has only now starting to bring her out in public. It hurts that H is acting as if he is a single unmarried man when in reality he is not!

Anyway, I am planning to take some self-esteem classes and positive thinking classes to help me with the GAL stuff. Have you thought doing this as well? If you get a chance read MuddleThrough's thread. There is an article on one of the posts called " Rebuilding your Self-Esteem After an Affair". It is really good . I printed it and hung it on my mirror so I can read it when I am beating myself up .

Take-care and talk to you soon.
KTF7

Hi KTF,

It makes me so sad and so angry to know that so many of us are going through this! It is so discouraging to know that so many people lack the courage and maturity to AT LEAST TRY to save their marriage. I just don't know how I'll ever be able to trust another man - I sure hope God will help me out on that one!

Except for the fact that my H is only 28 (I'm 10 yrs older) he definitely looks to be in MLC (or QLC). His behavior is about the emotional and mental equivalent of a 15 yr old who is rebelling against everyone. He has been using me as his source of blame and I am tired of it. I am tired of his anger, bitterness, and downright cruelty. I DO NOT DESERVE IT! It hurts me beyond measure to know how much I loved and cared for him - only for him to "forget" and use me as his scapegoat.

The reality is, he is depressed, ashamed, and full of self-loathing AND self-centered, blaming, a victim, etc. I think the Ow is just an escape from looking at himself and taking responsibility for his defects of character. He has jumped from a marriage to another serious relationship without ever really looking at the root of his problems. It's sad.

I pray that the Ow will show her true colors too, but IMO - just engaging in the A is evidence enough that she has no character. Obviously H doesn't see it that way, but I hope that in the end he will take the high road and leave that R.

At this point he is too deep into it, he's too addicted to Ow, he is too angry at me (or rather at himself) to own up to it and make a healthy choice. It's sad.

This week he has pulled the old "I'm too sick" to come see S4. He started setting it up on Thursday morning when he emailed to say he hadn't slept the night before due to anxiety..said he woke up shivering and crying. He'd already swapped his Thurs visit with Fri but then started emailing me Fri morning with more "tales of woe". I tried really hard not to take the bait and just kept it focused on his visit time, etc. He clearly wanted my sympathy though. WTF! Doesn't he have the Ow for that now!!?? Anyway, I told him not to come Fri so that he could be sure to be "well" for Saturday and he said he couldn't promise anything. Sure enough, no phonecall Saturday (today). I had to call him around noon just to "remind him" to call me and let me know what his plan was. Of course I knew he wasn't coming and in fact had told him Fri that I was going to make other plans and he could call me "to work something out", no call. Anyway, he finally called when I was out and said he had just picked up his "prescription" - Anti-anxiety I presume. He said he was going to deposit my child support money - haven't seen it yet.

Yes, he is very messed up. And it's so, so sad because it is such a contrast from the person I met and fell in love with. I can't even begin to describe the difference. It's night and day. My therapist suggests that he has regressed to this adolescent state because he didn't do it when he should have - he never really broke away from his parents and instead kept them on a pedestal. I believe he feels he never measured up - and he transferred that onto me. So, in effect, I have become his parent's and he can be angry at me. Does that make sense?

Anyway, regardless of WHY, he may never grow up and take ownership of this. He may continue down this path of blaming and victimhood forever. My father has done it for 60+ years. I wish I didn't have to compare H to my father, but sadly it has manifested that way - in different ways, but same outcome.

Well, tomorrow I am bringing S4 to visit family up North for the day. My mom is actually driving. I'm still not comfortable going to family gatherings without H, but my family is pretty understanding. I just feel like a failure because it took me so long to finally get M - only to have it fall apart. I'm embarassed. I know I didn't cause it, but still - the stigma is there.

Well, I just keep moving forward. I'll check out the self-esteem article, thanks.

Keep in touch.

MonicaP,

I can't believe how much I understand what you are going thorough. The way you describe your H is identical to mine! My H also has changed to the complete opposite of the man I fell in love with. He is so self-absorbed and treats me like he hates me most of the time. I continue to be kind and act like it doesn't bother me. I'm hoping that when he comes out of this "fantasy world" he's in he will start to see me for who I really am. I believe my H is trying very hard not to have any feelings for me anymore. He's trying to convince himself that I am no good for him.

I don't know if I told you this or not, but Ow does not have the best qualities that someone would want in a mate.
Only 2 people have met her that I know and they both do not like her. One is my MIL and the other is a friend of my husbands that he grew up with. They both think he is crazy!!

My H too sees d7 when it suits his schedule. He only wants to see our d every other weekend b/c he has to spend the other weekend with Ow! Now who is his priority do you think?? The man I married put family first and his children first. He is so caught up in his "new life" that he can't see staight right now.

It hurts to love someone who finds it easier to leave the R rather than be mature enough to find a way to make it work. I don't know what your R was like with your H, but my H and I still had fun together and had a pretty good sex life, but he still felt something was missing. He is out there looking for that missing piece. I'm not sure he will ever find it.

Hope you have a good day!

KTF7

Hi MonicaP, keepingthefaith

I've been reading both your posts for some time now and as you both say constantly similarities are uncanny. I am 40, 8 years older than my husband. Married 7 years tomorrow. We have a 31/2 year old son. My H has been having an affair since March 04. He moved out in Aug 04. He has been living with Ow since May'June 05, but thinks that I don't know. She bought a house in Jan 10 min from ours (he has never lived inour house we were in the process of renos when this started but I'll be d*&^^* if I give up what I worked so hard for.)

Noone in his family has met her. He does not have the gall or b&** to try and introduce her, as my MIL and I are very close. She did show up on MIL's job an introduced herself but was given a not to nice earful and a warning about coming back, so I'm sure she won't try that again. Boy to be legitimate. How would they feel if the tables were reversed on them?

No one has met the Ow who was married when the affair started. But he says all the same things that your Hs say to you. In fact only last week he said that being married to me was a hindrance to his happiness?!?!?

He wants S3 to meet Ow but I put a stop to that. I want her no where around him. She does not stand for anything I believe in although she always talks about how close her family is.

Also, she has told someone that she can't stand S3 since he is a part of me and he is rude. All second hand info on her part of course. In fact in a letter to H she referred to him as "that boy" does that sound like someone who would treat him well or even love him like their own? I think not. Stick to your guns about not having d7 and S4 meet them. It is all a show on their part for our Hs and it hurts no one but our children, the one's that Hs will put noone and nothing before.

maf,

So your H's A has been going on for a while now. I thought my H had Ow for a long time. DBing says the A usually only lasts about 6 months from the time it is exposed. My H brought her out in May 06', but I have proof she's been in his life for almost 2 years.
Until then I was crazy or I heard she is just my friend!

H just moved an hour away due to his job a few weeks ago, not sure if Ow moved with him or not. He comes home every other weekend to see d7.

Is it funny how they continue to try to deny it? What do they think we are stupid? Are you DBing and if so how does your H treat you and how do you treat him? I made some mistakes in my M , but so did H. Why do they think the answer is to move on to someone else? Don't they realize that in every R there will be problems? Why not work on their M rather than quit and start over with Ow.

KTF7

Hi KTF & maf,

Wow, what a sad thing that we can all relate so well. What happens to our H's that they completely forget the reason we M in the first place? Where does all that love and commitment go?

My H hasn't called S4 in a few days now and that kills me. H started last Tuesday by not showing up for his normal visit due to "not feeling well...feeling attacked, attacked, attacked". This was after we talked earlier in the day and exchanged some emails about me wanting to meet Ow before introducing to S4 (which may have already happened 2 weeks ago according to some spotty info from S4).

Anway, it got worse from there. H showed up Wed as agreed to cover while I had a work commitment, but then said he would come Fri instead of Thurs - without notice. By Friday he had already been emailing me to tell me that he was not sleeping well due to anxiety, waking up shaking and crying (WTF!). I finally told him to forget it, just come on Sat as we planned...."sorry, I can't promise anything...I don't know how I'm going to feel from one hour to the next." I told him I would make other plans and that he could call to try to work something out. No call, nothing. I called him at noon and he later left me a mssg saying he just picked up a prescription...and that was that.

No call today either. What is going on? It feels like it did this time last year when the bomb first dropped. It feels like he is deliberately distancing himself and trying to provoke me into some reaction. Meanwhile he always tells me how he would take S4 in a heartbeat, that he could take care of him just as well as me. Ha! He can't even show up or call. It makes me so angry.

On top of that it looks like he hasn't deposited my child support $ which was supposed to happen Friday - then Saturday according to him. Ugh!

I talked with my therapist yesterday and she's going to give me a referral for someone who can meet with me and S4 - at least periodically to make sure I'm doing everything I can to help S4 express his feelings, etc. It makes me so angry that H is hurting S4 so deeply and just doesn't even seem to have a clue.

My main goal now is to get my finances in order (I'm in the process of filing Chapter 7 bankruptcy), then go to family court and file for legal separation. Then at least I'll have legal recourse w/ child support payments and custody questions.

Maf, how have you been able to keep H from introducing Ow to your child? To my knowledge I really have no (legal) control or say in that.

Well, all we can do is keep trudging along. I'm GAL and experimenting w/ going dark. I plan to only discuss S4 and money matters w/ H and put boundaries up on everything else. I think he senses this and that's why he hasn't called for a few days. I pray he doesn't take his anger out on S4. But I need to distance myself from him and to send the message that I am not his confidant, his friend, nor a casual aquaintence. I don't want to hear about his job or anything else personal - let him go to Ow and see what he gets from her!

Has either of your H's filed for D?

Take it easy...

ktf:

I know that when H first moved out and he would have S3 by his place she would be there. I also fournd out that before he moved out a few times when he took S3 out she met him. But at the time S3 was 13-19months old and could not abide strangers. I'm sure that he does not remember her and certainly would not like her. Typical dressed to the nines drives SUV where designer jewellery and is all about apperances. But a couple of times I have driven by the new house and he always wants to stop to his daddy so it is obvious that he has had him there more than once but I doubt it is when she is around because S3 tells his mama everything (and I ahve put my foot down about him NOt having him around her and the first time that I know for sure it will be hell to pay.) I have heard she is upset that he won't bring S3 around her and let the three of them go out together WTF?!?!? She not only wnat s my H she wants my S3. Go have your own?!?!? Again it would all be show for H.

She told someone that H wants to have another child desperately but she is not going to under the circumstances?!?!? But, that may all be talk on her part. Her sister has said that she and her husband tried for years and nothing happened so if she is the problem, my H is barking up the wrong tree. I was 38 when I got pregnant and had no trouble at all. And he always asks me if I am ready to give S3 a sister. We said we would have another when we had S3.

I guess I am DBing but because of where I live I have not beeen able to get the book as yet. I am dying to get it. In fact when I mentioned to my insurance agent the problems H and I were having she recommended DR. I was shocked and pleased to say the least that someone here not only had heard about it but had tried it and it worked for her.

But I guess I do follow the princples from what I get from the bb... no snooping (that is HARD!!!) and I still do it sometimes; no talking about Ow; no pursuing; GAL (I need to do major work on this); no R talks unless he brings it up; mystery and detaching... but like everyone here my DB skills are a work in progress. I think that once I get and read the book I will probably be a better study.

MP

No, my H has never really asked for a D. I always bring it up in a roundabout way. If I bring it up he'll say "don't you think its best yada yada" or "we need to do it because we are fooling ourselves..." or if I say I am tired or unhappy with our situation he'll say "well why don't you do something about it"... Once I presurred him into saying yes I want a D and then replied to him over my dead body...the Ow will forever *&*^( my H.

He has said on tow occasions that when he gets momey that he was going to file. The last time being about a week ago and then proceeds to spend the night at my place for the next three nights. He saw a lawyer (hers) two years ago who apparently told him he needed counselling not a divorce. He also saw our lawyer who told him the same. But he seems to want me to file. In fact the Ow supposedly has "consented" to me naming her WTF?!?!?! Here, divorce grounds are very specific and have to be proven. He has no grounds to file on. The only grounds that he has is separation (and the minimum time for that is 5 years). But even if you are physically not living in the same house if you are still intimate the time period is negated. We have not been intimate for 7 weeks now the longest time since this has happened and he has not tried anything so he must have figured out something. So...

The Ow is really presuring him to file. She keeps saying that I am stupid to hold on to a man who has left me. But she is still holding on and fighting and she has no rights to him. I do?!?!??! Typical Ow syndrome. She put H out last week for 10 days (toook her keys and all) and gave him an ultimatum to file or it was over. But after a week at my place he was back there again...

He wants me to file in order to minimize his guilt... I am not going to give him that satisfaction. First off I know that he will screw me and my son financially (he works for himself so does not get regular paychecks) so I can't prove any income to the courts. As it is he does support us now I think mostly for appearnces because most people do not realize our situation (including my houskeeper who is in our house daily!?!?!). He says he is unhappy and does not love me anymore but whenever I put my foot down about him coming around all the time and calling etc he steps up his time at my place. (but then says that he is only there because of his son!?!?)

I have told him that if he signs the house over to my name only I will give him a D. He says no. I have to buy him out? Why? this is the roof over your sons head? I have paid the mortgage on my own from day one. I have no money to buy H out since I am stuck paying all of OUR debt. Ow has her own house that H already lives in so when you marry her she can had H's name to her property.

Trust me after what H has done to me to be with her Ow will never trust that. But... Ow has siad that he needs NOT to give up his share in the house. The nerve of her. That is why she will wait 5 years or NEVER if she thinks I am going to D him for her to show him off as hers. Let her ruin her name and reputation being known as the Ow who stole MAF's husband.

People are nice to your face but they denigrate you behind your back, epecially when children are involved.

Sorry about the long post I really need to vent.


The saga is never ending isn't it?