Thanks for some of the postings regarding these books. I too have a "two time" offender - my WAW's first affair was shortly after we married - the second started almost a year ago no...
I bought but need to read "His Needs, Her Needs" - not sure if you have been through that one either. In any event, I much prefer books with real life "examples", testimonials and data (why I liked Michelle's books)...
Anyway, I'll keep following along...
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
This is probably going to sound weird, but it's nice to meet another person married to another two-time offender. I don't feel so alone here, or like I'm the only "nut" staying with someone who would do this more than once (at least that's how I feel other people who've never been through anything like this must perceive me as).
Although, I've found the second time weirdly easier to accept. I don't take it personally. I almost see it like someone who has an addiction problem. Like the affairs were feeding some problem inside him. I also think it's really interesting how my husband's affairs were so similar. Both were married women at work and short-term. They started by sharing problems (someone that he felt listened to him) and evolved into mildly physical stuff (although I'm not sure how far the second one went physically, but my guess is it was more than mild and that's why he filed for divorce. That part does irritate me because a darn prostitude would have been a heck of a lot cheaper!!!!).
Anyhow, I haven't read "His Needs, Her Needs." I've got one of Dr. Phil's relationship books, one of the Venus and Mars books, Dr. Laura's book and just stack of other stuff. I should probably just write my own book here!
If you come across any pearls of wisdom please share!
Here's some interesting facts from the "Not 'Just Friends'" book:
Assumption: Affairs happen in unhappy or unloving marriages. FACT: Affairs can happen in good marriages. They are less about love and more about sliding across boundaries.
Assumption: Affairs occur because of sexual attraction. FACT: The lure is how the unfaithful partner is mirrored back though the adoring eyes of the affair partner. Another appeal is that individuals experience new roles and opportunities for growth in new relationships.
Assumption: Cheating partners almost always leaves clues, so naive spouse must be burying his or her head in the sand. FACT: The majority of affairs are never detected. Some people can compartmentalize their lives or are such brillant liars their partner never finds out.
Assumption: The person having an affair isn't "getting enough" at home. FACT: The truth is the unfaithful partner may not be giving enough. In fact, the spouse that gives too little is at greater risk than the spuse who gives too much because he or she is less invested.
Another interesting thing from the book. The author uses the image of walls and windows to symbolize the levels of emotional intimacy within the marriage and within the affair. She writes that you can only have intimacy in your relationship when you are honest and open about the significant things in your life.
When you withhold information and keep secrets you create walls that act as barriers to the free flow of thoughts and feelings that invigorate your relationship.
In an affair the unfaithful partner has built a wall to shut out the marriage partner and has opened a window to let in the affair partner. To reestablish a marriage that is intimate and trusting after an affair, the walls and windows must be reconstructed to conform to the safety code and keep the structure of the marriage sound so that it can withstand the test of time. You install a picture window between you and your marriage partner and construct a solid or opaque wall to block out contact with the affair partner. This arrangement of walls and windows nurtures the marriage and protects it. To be healthy, every relationship needs this safety code.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Quote: When you withhold information and keep secrets you create walls that act as barriers to the free flow of thoughts and feelings that invigorate your relationship.
thanks for sharing! that book sounds awesome, I'll see if I can get my hands on it.
My H pretty much shut me out the entire month before he left which lead to the A, I just thought he was depressed and needed peace and quiet and space, so I'd leave w/kids so he can "relax". Big mistake, I read it on an article and he himself told me "that made it worse!" "I was throwing this big hints!"
Yea, hints are a great way to let someone know you are on the brink of the abyss...
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
Strange way to find comradery, don't you think? Trust me, my sanity too has been challenged by plenty of folks. I think you might be onto something with :
Quote: I don't take it personally. I almost see it like someone who has an addiction problem. Like the affairs were feeding some problem inside him.
Once I got myself back "together" after the bomb, this is where my head started to go as well. I started to realise that it was as much (if not MORE) about them and their problems - their need to "escape" somehow. My WAW's affairs were similar too in that both OM's were high school, blue collar folks that could NO way give them the standard of living that I have provided for my family. DON'T ANYBODY take that the wrong way - I'm not judging in any way. But, they gave WAW a person she could easily empathize with and they were people that live "by the seat of their pants". Pretty exciting compared to me as I was a year ago. More so when we were dating, I was that guy - living day to day, week to week.
Anyway, I think she felt "understood". Reading DR (for myself and what I needed to change in ME) and coupled with reading Mars/Venus, FMO, FWO and other fine works I won't mention here, I came to realise that *I* can be that guy, balanced with the responsible adult that I should be.
I saw that all WAW wanted was to be "understood", listened too, and funny enough, put in place when she was out of control. Since my self worth sucked, I feared going head to head with her - fear that she would throw me out (FUNNY now) and she would further not fulfill what I needed - to feel significant in some way (more on that in a minute). It ends up being a lot to juggle and it takes a lot of work, but we're fixing something here, right?
I mention the "significance" thing to you because I know that I did not feel that my W gave any of this to me. I felt criticized in everything I did - with an occasional "attaboy". Instead of having an affair with another woman, I had an affair with work. Climbed the corporate ladder to the top only to find nobody was there. Won't make that mistake again. It has so profoundly affected me, that I have even told my boss that when this is not longer fun, I'm moving on. Crazy.
Sooooo, I am glad you are hear to bounce things off of and we might be able to give opposing perspectives - that is good. For me, it might be that I need to help my W to feel understood and listen. To be honest when I am going off to my cave and when she crosses a boundary of mine. This seems to have been working so far. For you (dare I say), you might need to find ways to make your H feel significant - to avoid the "home improvement committee" thing (Cat, are you reading?? )- I know in my M/R, it bothered me that my W was critique every thing I did. Problem was I surpressed.
Just some random thoughts on a bleary New England day....
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
we might be able to give opposing perspectives - that is good. For me, it might be that I need to help my W to feel understood and listen. To be honest when I am going off to my cave and when she crosses a boundary of mine.
Help me understand what you said, Sven. How do you feel "we" should balance allowing "you" to go to your cave when you need that time alone, but let you know we still care? Does that make sense? Is it your responsibility to ask for that time before you head to the cave, or do you expect your wife to come check on you and then you tell her why you are there? Matilda
Quote: For you (dare I say), you might need to find ways to make your H feel significant - to avoid the "home improvement committee" thing (Cat, are you reading??
OK, who are you and how did you know?? I did devalue my H, second guessing anything he did, telling him how I knew "a better way" to do something he had done, critizing and getting angry when he did something on his own without consulting me.
Matilda has a good point though, pre-bomb I thought I was letting him go into the cave to heal, but turns out he was just shutting me out. Though things are different now and by now I'll realize if he's been in the cave too long something is up.
I want to give up the presidency of the home improvement committe, I really am trying!
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
Running, sorry if we are stealing your thread a bit here...
Cat - I'LL NEVER TELL
Matilda, I don't have an easy answer for that one. I'll tell you what I have seen and done however. Part of me really retreated to the cave when WAW would "hound" me about what was bothering me. Looking back, I was like a hermit crab squeezing back into its shell. I realise that was very threatening to WAW - I can still hear the ring of "is it me?", "did I do something" (answer was no - it was the toilet that I needed to unclog, plus the project at work, plus the screaming child, plus the .... you get the idea).
I really put this together when I read Mars/Venus, FMO and FWO. Part of my GAL was to get back in shape (best of my life baby!) and I started running on the treadmill. While doing so, I found that I was able to quickly sort problems out and clear my head, this made me a better listener and I would spend less time in the cave. Somewhere around the same time, I also started to recognize when I was going into the cave. BTW, I've communicated the whole cave concept to WAW and a lightbulb went off for her too. At that point I started saying heck with it and now I TELL her that I need some time (cave) but that it is (or WE are) are okay - I just need to sort things out. I did this two weekends ago and the response was GREAT. She was relieved that I was HONEST about where I was and I know it relieved some of her anxiety. At least this is what I am seeing.
I think then, I feel loved by the simple understanding that I need that time to process my sh-t. And a comment back like, I'll be here when you are ready to come out was good enough for me to feel loved - or that she reached out to hold my hand when we got out of the car to go off and do what we were going to do.
Lastly, it allows me to continue to control MY frame, my life without criticism. She still does it from time to time, but I have an awareness about it and almost understand that she has little control over it. So long as it doesn't cross a boundary for me, I'll let it slide off - if it does, I call her on it.
I hope this makes some sort of sense...
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Quote: At that point I started saying heck with it and now I TELL her that I need some time (cave) but that it is (or WE are) are okay - I just need to sort things out. I did this two weekends ago and the response was GREAT. She was relieved that I was HONEST about where I was and I know it relieved some of her anxiety. At least this is what I am seeing.
Great post, Sven! Yes, that's the way I've seen it in my situation, too.
It can almost seem like too simple of a solution to what seems like a complicated situation, doesn't it? However, it also seems like something that works quite often.
ESPECIALLY in the first parts of piecing, it's these little reassurances that "I'm ok with us", on the parts of both parties, that help in re-building a better R than there was before. Also, it's something that's important to keep doing, even as you move farther along down the road.
It's often difficult to make the shift from struggling to save your marriage, to these first parts of rebuilding your marriage. There are a lot of things that you may have thought you "shouldn't" do before, like thinking about YOUR needs, that you may "need" to do now. Really, in essence, they may actually be part of the new found needs of your relationship. (I'm not sure if all THAT made sense, but there's a lot of good info regarding things like this in the "Tips for Newcomers to Piecing" thread here.)
This made a lot of sense to me, Sven! Keep up the great work!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
For me, it might be that I need to help my W to feel understood and listen. To be honest when I am going off to my cave and when she crosses a boundary of mine. This seems to have been working so far. For you (dare I say), you might need to find ways to make your H feel significant - to avoid the "home improvement committee" thing (Cat, are you reading?? )- I know in my M/R, it bothered me that my W was critique every thing I did. Problem was I surpressed.
Hummmmmm... Sven, how much of all this does your wife realize and agree with? Does she talk about making any self-discoveries? I'm curious about how much other spouses who have had affairs realize. I read about some who report learning a huge amount about themselves and others who seem to want to suppress it. I wonder if most want to do the later.
I think my husband must need to felt listened to and understood just like your wife. Do you do a lot of repeating what she says? I'm pretty good about not criticising or trying to improve my husband. I've always sort of accepted him the way he is. When I was younger I might have done it a little, but the older I get the more patient and accepting I become. I think I'm more patient and accepting that most. I'm hardest on me. I expect much more out of myself than others.
One area I know I have a problem in is I'll give a great deal in a relationship and if I don't feel anything back I might start to pull away. My husband is not a lovey, emotive sort of person. It's hard for me to give and give and give without feeling like I'm getting any love or attention back. My husband is a very busy person. On one hand he'd resent me if I didn't support his hobbies, on the other he seems to think I don't give him enough attention. I feel there are a lot of Catch-22 situations for me. Either way I lose.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Just curious.... what do you guys do when you realize they are still lying. For example, the other night we were talking about when I started noticing my husband "pulling away" from the marriage. I told him around maybe November (that's when his class started with OW). He said he didn't start up the relationship with her until February. But... I know it started before then because I have the phone numbers. Maybe this is an error on his part, or maybe he's trying to minimize the length of time... I don't know.
But what do you do if you realize they are still lying?
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
)- I know in my M/R, it bothered me that my W was critique every thing I did. Problem was I surpressed.
I did devalue my H, second guessing anything he did, telling him how I knew "a better way" to do something he had done, critizing and getting angry when he did something on his own without consulting me. 
