First off, thanks Cherish for letting us hijack your thread. I learn a lot from these discussions. I hope you will too – as one Great Manipulator to another.
---------------------------------------- she COULD NOT help me when I was feeling down. Because she had no voice. She could only watch me suffer, watch me hurt and maybe yell at me when the pain got bad enough for her. I needed a friend to basically kick my a$$ and get me past the doubts I had. She WANTED to but she COULD NOT. She had lost her voice.
SHE COULD NOT DO IT. That's the ONE point I want to make as we discuss this unbalanced, codependent relationship. -----------------------------------------
Frank, I can see in your case that this is true. But in mine I will stop short of saying she “could not”. I look back to many times when she tried but I cut her short. She had a voice but I would not let her use it. When I was depressed, especially with booze involved, I tended to push help away; to push loved ones away. I see the current low self-esteem in my stbXW and I pity her for it as she now pushes me away but that was me not to long ago – pushing her away when she tried to help. I came across as controlling as I pushed her away – “I will do it myself” attitude. So she gave up.
But looking back I can say that I wish she was stronger for me. Yes, she tried but I did not see it as much of a try at the time. So, in my case I would not say “could not do it”, I would say “was not strong enough to do it”. And instead of confronting me head on when things bottomed out and boosting me up – she bailed instead and dropped the bomb.
You lend hope to those experiencing a PA. In your case the affair ran its course and was viewed as bad. You were lucky, based on what I read here. I hope that is the case for Cherish and his wife. I don’t think there is the OM in my case but as I said the kids were my W’s “fix”. In many cases the OM/OW becomes a permanent fix. It all depends I guess. But as long as that fix is there – the LBS has a long wait indeed – or little wait at all as divorce becomes reality, as it will be in my case.
All this does resonate with me. As I told you before I took your stitch apart and found many things I used for growth. But your unique things made the difference – why you are back together and I will not be. If only I knew what I know now.
Quote: But looking back I can say that I wish she was stronger for me. Yes, she tried but I did not see it as much of a try at the time. So, in my case I would not say “could not do it”, I would say “was not strong enough to do it”. And instead of confronting me head on when things bottomed out and boosting me up – she bailed instead and dropped the bomb.
Well said. My W was similar. She 'tried' but because of these weaknesses she wasn't stronger than I was when I was pushing her away.
Years ago a I had a girlfriend whom I dated for about 7 years. I had a real downturn in my life and was pretty beat up. After a couple weeks of my pity party she basically read me the riot act - with love- and told me she KNEW that I wasn't a loser like I was thinking I was and she KNEW that I wasn't going to stay down and she WAS NOT GOING TO LET ME QUIT. She picked me up because she had a voice and she was strong.
Quote: You lend hope to those experiencing a PA. In your case the affair ran its course and was viewed as bad. You were lucky, based on what I read here.
Ah, but I don't believe in 'luck'. I believe in working hard to rediscover yourself, and become the person the WAS knows you to really be.
And then I learned what her REAL issues were, not the 'I don't love you' stuff but the hurts of the past - things I had nothing to do with. Then I made sure I was there for her - even if sometimes it meant being tough while risking that she would run farther away.
In my case, she needed a man who would be there no matter what while she was going through this growth. OM was a loser (like they all are) who was filling a need that I had been filling until my fall. It was hard and painful and I did it anyway. There are several other men on this board who are in similar situations and they are only now starting to see that they married someone who needs their support now more than ever - without enabling their bad behaviors at the same time.
There are several other men on this board who are in similar situations and they are only now starting to see that they married someone who needs their support now more than ever - without enabling their bad behaviors at the same time.
It's really hard to do.
this is the hardest thing to learn ..... I also learned the hard way. To support them without enabiling and to point out the faults they need to change without being b*tchy, to help them grow. Funny my H neede me to be strong too, has told me this many times during our reconciliation...so now I work on my strength and being strong and helping support him in a way I could not quite get a handle on before... the differnce in how it is received is amazing...
And I have to work on my voice b/c it is not natural for me to use it b/c I lived in fear for sooooo ,so long. God bless...
I saw my counselor the opther day and we talked about how I am feeling now that I've been through all the phases of this experience.
When W finally owned her part of the problems was when we were able to communicate with each other for real, after years of holding back feelings or not feeling safe to be honest lest we 'lose' the other person.
The whol idea of 'owning' your role in the breakdown of the relationship is very confusing to a lot of people. I know for me I thought at first it meant 'taking some of the blame'.
But it doesn't mean that at all.
To the WAS, it means to look at the old relationship and the things about it that made YOU feel unhappy and ask yourself, what could I have done that would have helped, or made a difference? The answer is rarely 'nothing!'.
In our situations where we were both in a codependant relationship, the WAS could have done a lot of things to make SOME kind of difference but they didn't. Why? IN MY case it's because W was afraid she would lose me. She was afraid to say what she really meant, or ask for what she really needed. She had a controlling jerk father and her role model for dealing with men was to whine or act helpless - not to be a strong and independant woman.
Once again, this isn't her FAULT. It isn't BLAME, it's knowing what responsibilities she had to our relationship.
And I don't see it as her fault, or blame her for anything. I see it as her being unable to deal with my 'Tyep A' personality because she had no tools to do that with. She had always learned not to be 'heard'.
So, as she told me, she just slowly started to lose respect for me because she felt that I DID NOT LISTEN TO HER. I did not respect her feelings. And she's right. I didn't.
That was MY responsibility in out relationship and I OWN that. Now, she sees that it was HER responsibility to make SURE I was hearing her, to make SURE I was aware that she was feeling like I wasn't respecting her. Sometimes that means that SHE had to calmly but fimrly start a conversation with me about it, and not lose it with me when I didn't 'get it' right away.
That's part of what 'owning' your role in the deterioration of your marriage means. Knowing what you were UNABLE or UNWILLING to do and realizing that it was a choice you made and it contributed to the problem.
Most of us LBS's have owned our roles, and more. Given enough time even the angriest WAS will eventually be able to 'see' how they were part of the problem that they try to lay all the blame on us.
And WE need to remember not to lay the blame on THEM. We both have a responsibility.
That is the best and most precise description and analysis anybody has written on here. I think for those working through these issues it is important to remember this. Thats is why they say the more time you can scrape together before filing for divorce the better off you will be. Frank you are a champion and a great role model for all of us. Listen people.
Hillcountry
Hillcountry
[color:"red"]I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it."
Frank, your last post touched on a good point regarding the "reason" your W was not more strong with regards to telling you how she was feeling or what she wanted. I wonder how many WAS's did not communicate their concerns better for fear of losing the LBS.
It seems ironic, sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The WAS shuts down or doesn't take stand for fear of losing their spouse. Yet the lack of communication makes it inevitable. And if things are not ironic enough; they are the ones that end up leaving!
OK, enough of that...so I'm wondering, is GAL safe? Listen (read) to this;
What a weekend. It started Friday night with a soccer scrimmage against S11's soccer team - parents against kids. Now, I've been exercising a lot since the bomb - I thought I was in pretty good shape. WRONG! Man, those kids have energy. I felt like someone had removed one of my lungs. About half way through the game I got my second wind and was OK. S11 and I had a ball. Most of the game I was paring up against him so there was not only the parent-kid competition but also a little father-son competition. Suffice it to say, old Dad still has some skills - didn't hurt that I was fouling him a little . Anyway, we had a lot of fun - ended up chasing S11 around the field to give him a big sweaty bear hug.
Saturday I could barely move, not only was I stiff but I think I pulled a groin muscle....it's the most action my groin has seen in a loooong time .
Around midday I decided to go up to Lake Tahoe with some friends. It was nice - I hadn't been there in years. W and I had our honeymoon there and used to go a ton, together. Lots of good memories there. We spent Saturday night hanging out, played a little blackjack, caught a show and had the best seafood buffet you could imagine.
Sunday we decided to take the gondola up to the top of Heavenly Valley Ski Resort - and this is where the real fun begins. So, we're nearing the halfway point up the mountain and the gondola comes to a stop. About five minutes later we're on our way again, only to stop a few more times on the way. Eventually, we get to the lookout and get off. We had planned on checking out the view before getting back on the gondola and heading up to the top, where we would get something to eat and have a few drinks. So we hang around for about half an hour before proceeding back to the gondola. This is when we find out the gondola has an electrical problem and is inoperable. There were still people on it that did not make it to the top.
They kept getting it going for short moments until everyone was off at the lookout - this took about an hour. We hung around for another hour before finding out that the gondola was dead, functioning on the last resort plan - running on generators to get the last people off. This, we were told was the last resort before having to get rescue crews in to extract people by repelling down from the gondola(s). So, how the heck do we get down? We then had to hike up the mountain to the top (where the bar is ). So off we go, hiking through the remnants of the last snow fall. We finally reach the top and now we wait, again. They only had two little pickup trucks at the top of the mountain and there were about 150of us, waiting to get down the mountain. Finally we get our chance to pile into a pickup truck and they drive us to one of the ski lifts (tram). OK, so it's been about four hours now and we are at the tram.
We pile into the tram and get to know each other very well (squished together). Now, we're informed that a wedding is taking place just below the tram so we cannot leave yet. We waited a half hour for the wedding to be done before we finally head down the mountain. Ah but it's not over yet. We get down the mountain and now have to wait for a bus to take us to where we started (about a lifetime ago). So the bus comes and we get back to home base. By this point it's several hours past when we wanted to depart so we pile into the car to head down the mountain.
For those of you who don't know the area, there are two ways to get back to the S.F. Bay Area from Tahoe – HWY 80 and HWY50. Seeing as we were at the south shore of the lake, HWY50 was the obvious choice. So we trucked off and headed over the summit. About 5 to ten miles down from the summit the traffic came to a stop – not a crawl but a turn your car off and walk around stop. Fortunately, someone came by and told us that cars were stopped for miles – we were fortunately near a side street and manage to get onto it. So for another hour we meandered through the mountains, navigating path around the traffic, towards home – and we did…somehow! It was quite an adventure, to say the least.
So tell me, is GAL safe? Take care all and keep up the good fight!
Quote: Frank, your last post touched on a good point regarding the "reason" your W was not more strong with regards to telling you how she was feeling or what she wanted. I wonder how many WAS's did not communicate their concerns better for fear of losing the LBS.
It seems ironic, sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The WAS shuts down or doesn't take stand for fear of losing their spouse. Yet the lack of communication makes it inevitable. And if things are not ironic enough; they are the ones that end up leaving!
This is exactly what happened in my M. I think it is probably very common. For some reason my H did not feel that he could tell me about his true feelings, fear of losing me, his insecurities, etc. Then we began to go to counseling, but shortly thereafter, he just shut down completely. I felt completely in the dark all of a sudden, just after having been shocked to hear that he was unhappy. This was the time when I needed information the most, but he just wasn't communicating at all. What's funny is that he kept telling me that "we have communication issues". Well, yes, when you hide your emotions for a few years because you are being "polite", that's what happens- there's no communication.
Then all of a sudden my H just decides to leave, decides that our R can never get better. Of course it can't if he's not willing to work on our communication issues!
Isn't strange how their insecurities and fear of abandonment actually manifest themselves in their walking away from the M?
Frank, thank you so much for putting all of this out there. I'm learning so much from your experiences and appreciating that more every day. Thank you.
Cherishher, you had quite an eventful weekend, my friend! I hope that you are well. Sending warm thoughts your way.
M 33
WAH 33
M 6 years
No Kids
Bomb 4/21/06
he filed for divorce
he filed for divorce - now what? part I
I just wanted to stop in and say "hi" - nothing new to report, really. I'm still headed for the big D!!! Woo-hoo!
I'm staying busy....more so than I would ever have imagined. This single parent thing really sucks! I have however, reached a degree of peace that is a stange comfort in contrast to the emmense sadness and loss that I feel.
Rather than going to each of your threads to comment I'll just say - keep on DB'ing for at the end of the day you will be at peace knowing you did all you could possibly do to stand by your spouse. I for one feel at peace with myself and secure in the knowledge that I will never make the same mistakes again.
Keep on keeping on my friends - you're always in my thoughts. Speaking of, has anyone heard from Liz7?
. Anyway, we had a lot of fun - ended up chasing S11 around the field to give him a big sweaty bear hug.
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). So off we go, hiking through the remnants of the last snow fall. We finally reach the top and now we wait, again. They only had two little pickup trucks at the top of the mountain and there were about 150of us, waiting to get down the mountain. Finally we get our chance to pile into a pickup truck and they drive us to one of the ski lifts (tram). OK, so it's been about four hours now and we are at the tram.
