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Ronj,

I am sorry to hear that. I think we both need to move forward. If our spouses catch up great, if not so be it.

Here is an update from Christmas. Wife spent Christmas eve with me and then all day at my mom's for Christmas. No problems. I unfortunately pushed to hard Christmas night. She got defensive and pushed back.

Christmas was very nice. We had a great time. We shopped, went to church and she spent the day with my family. We had fun and laughed a lot. It was a great day.

Unfortunately, I pressured her. She said it is over. I said do you want me out of your life? She said I think I have made that clear at mediation, at counseling and I am divorcing you. She said that she does not trust me. She thinks I am disingenuous. I am manipulating. I am hunting her. That I want something. I said I want to give. I want to support her in whatever she wants.

She said she wants to be friends. She wants to be great co-parents. She wants to fix herself. She says I can't do it. She wants me to stop pressuring her and to give her space. She needs time.

I said so it is over, "She says apparently so." She said it kills her to have to keep say that. She wants me to stop putting her in a position to have to say it.

She said she is not ready to date me. She is not ready to trust. She said she is the Grinch with a black heart and I will not be the one to open it. She said somebody will love her in the future for who she is. She said she doesn't think that I have changed and that six months is not enough time to prove it.

She was mad that we talked for an hour. She was mad that she still looks like the bad guy with the kids. She said she does not have to tell me why she won't come back, why she won't give me a chance, and why she does anything. She doesn't have to answer anything I say.

She wants to do her thing and travel around the world and play. I am suppose to pick up her pieces. I said give me the kids.

I said there has to be somebody else. I said all of your friends have given their husbands second chances why not me? She said because I am done. She said there is nobody else.

I said I want to serve her. She said what do you get out of it. I said if I serve you then at some point you will start to love me again. She said no. I am not willing to take that chance. I said what chance you have my mom, Joel and Kathy, my counselor and a lot of other people who will not let me fall back into my ways. She said no way.

I said your parents were so bad to you and you forgave them. She said I take my parents in small doses when I want on my terms. So that is what I get ( I thought that).

Her plan is to play. To travel around the world and be mommy when it is convenient for her. She is a rebelling child. You have to give her enough rope to hang herself. I will be there to pick up the pieces. I am facilitating her by doing it your way. I can't focus on her anymore. She is unreachable. I have to let her go if I want her back. She said it is so many words. It is more pressure and she hates it. On a positive, she did get angry and tell me how bad I was. A warp way of opening up.

Happy New Year/And to a better 2006

Jeff

JSD, Your post was very similar to what I was going through exactly one year ago. She was nice during the Christmas visit but then later said it was just for the sake of the kids. She filed for D a week later. Letting go is easier said than done which is why I'm here four months after the D went final. xw started with the "want to live a fuller life" bs but is still in her rut while I'm jumping off cliffs and biking down volcanoes now. Her latest phrase she opened up with was "I don't have to ask her forgiveness for not being the man she thought I could be but never reached", apparently she had some secret standard she was unwilling to share with me that I didn't pass. Don't see anywhere in your thread how old you are but statistically if you're over 35, then > 85% of divorces filed by women are in affairs.

Wish I had some good advice for you but everything I tried in the past year has not worked too well as far as I can tell. On the upside statistically, 68% of those couples that divorce and remarry stay married while 68% of those that marry other people will divorce. Kind of interesting I thought. The other thing I've learned is that these things take a long time to dissolve and figure a long time to reconnect if it is to happen. Can't rush anything as much as would like to.

The New Year's plan is to continue to improve on life (may hear it as GAL) go out/date, have fun but not give my heart to anyone. If you are a year behind me you may not be at that point yet and that's OK. Again, don't know how long you have been married, I was 24 years and read that it can take on the average one month for each year. Stay strong and here's to the best for us all. RonJon

Hi RonJon,

So glad you had a good Christmas with the kids and also a great time on your cruise! Really good to hear. Hope things are going well for you. Have fun dating and take care. f21

Things are going well so far this year. Made a rare call to the xw the other day, talked for a while about Xmas and New Years and then asked her what her intentions towards the boys would be if we (me and S14, S16) were to move back to the old town (xw/D19) which is a possibility. Didn't wanting her insisting on some one week my house, one week her place hassle. She said she wouldn't and I asked to get that in writing. Could tell from her voice that the prospect excited her but still have a lot of thinking to do about that esp w/om still around there. Sometimes think as far away as possible is better to remove that influence. Still have plenty of time, no need to make a decision in a hurry. No hurry to leave here either with what looks like a good year shaping up. RonJon

RonJon-

My thread locked up before I got my brain wrapped around itself well enough to post.

If I could be so bold as to hijack your thread for a moment, you posted on my locked thread that:

Quote:

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Everybody deserves to be happy with their lives and shouldn't have to accept circumstances that will cause long term unhappiness. Would you be more happy with H and no career or career and no H?

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I've asked myself this Q many, many times. Did you mean any H at all, or my particular H? If I really, really, really had to decide between a happy M and a career, I guess it might be the career. But I would be unhappy. Maybe just a little less unhappy than if I had an H and no career. But, do I have to make that choice?

But if you mean chosing between my particular H and a career. Well, the answer is the career. As painful as it has been/would be to leave the R, I know EVENTUALLY, one day I would be over it. But if I stayed in the M and denied my desire to follow a passionate career, I would never get over it. Even if he stayed with the repressed, depressed, angry, passive-aggressive hag I would become, we would be miserable. More likely I would just start scheming ways to create a secret career, he would find out, and we would split anyway.

And about you moving closer to your daughter in your XW and the OM's area...I think it would be good for you to be closer to your daughter and for your boys to be closer to their mother. But, I too think being around where OM is, especially when you're still feeling the knife in your back is seriously problematic.

Hi Opti, No problem with hijacking my thread, especially since it was my post that locked yours up. Didn't see where you started a new one yet. With my quote, I meant with your particular/current H maybe because I don't understand his none or all philosophy on child care and read it as closed ended no option of either being a stay at home mom or else give you another (non)option he knows you wouldn't take (full time only child care). But after reading your comment and mine again, the quote could apply to another H but in that case would think you would choose one that would support either part or full time job/ part or full time child care. It's the pick what makes you happier theory again, not the pick what makes you the least unhappy which really are two different things. Its good that you had a long talk with him finally, hopefully it will open the doors of communication more between the two of you. Being upfront about everything is an important part of M and is needed since the big things like careers, kids, where to live, etc don't go anywhere without it.

On my issue, concur with the seriously problematic point but can't think of any way around things. Another thing that time won't fix is that knife in my back as long as the om is in the picture. It's the classic case of greatest reward involves the greatest risk. Having all of my old "nuclear" family in the same town with an eventual prospect of xw maybe wanting to try again as the reward but having her either trying to get the boys from me or incorporate the om with them as the new unit being the risk. Don't know still, would be best if they would break up before the decision on where to move has to be made.

Earlier in this thread I'd put:

Quote:

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New Year's resolution will be to not be "friends" as she wants to be, to rebuff her "friendliness actions" for as long as she is with the om or at least for the 1st three months (can focus on 90 days easier than an entire year to start with). Time to have her stop thinking she has me on the rope as a back-up or that we can "all get along" or whatever she may be thinking. Believe that is the way to eventually move forward at some point in the future.

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Well, she called today and that plan was shot to heck because we had a good conversation, some laughs, etc. Don't know if it's the darn DB training to "reamin upbeat, validate, etc" or whatever but I couldn't bring myself to bark at her or tell her I don't want to hear from here until om is out of the picture. Am I a chump or what! Don't know if she got my "Dear Jane" letter yet or didn't read it or is ignoring it or testing it or what. Any advice out there? I seem to have painted myself into a corner; if I continue to be friendly and she continues to see om is not good, if I tell her (again) to stop seeing om or I won't be her "friend" sounds stupid to even write it here. If I just rebuff her and not tell her why don't think that could help things but maybe she'll just "know"? Maybe if she believes we are coming back to town, it would change her way of thinking since the entire separation/D came out of the move thousands of miles away that at first she said she had the "courage" to do and now says it was a "cowardly" thing to do. Think that next time she calls for a friendly chat that I just talk to her about how could she serously consider me to be her friend when she continues to see a former friend of mine that started while we were M'd or is that too brutally honest? Need a plan... RonJon "Seriosly Problematic"

RonJon-
I started a new thread in the Thinking of Leaving board. It's not a very active place over there. But, it felt like where I should be. I'll put a new link in my signature line.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the choice that would make me most happy and the one that would make me least unhappy. You say there's a difference, but I don't get it yet. What would make me most happy is to be able to pursue a freelance career in writing/public relations that would allow me to spend more time with my child(ren), AND be in a supportive M at the same time. But, if having it all (career, kids, spouse) isn't an option, then I have to choose from the options that are left. So my task is to find the option that will make me least unhappy.

As I'm typing this, I'm thinking that my attitude is not right here. All that makes logical sense to me. But I know a true optimist wouldn't put it that way. I guess I'm just unhappy at the prospect of not having it all.

As for your current conundrum...I can see what you're talking about. You sent her a letter that told her you weren't able to be her friend, but she calls up and you have a "friend's" conversation. I think a lot of us DBers paint ourselves into this corner. The reason you're stuck is because you don't want to chase her off because you still have your door open to reconciliation. So can't bring yourself to push her friendship away when she offers it. But when the conversation is over you can't decide if you're just prolonging your own agony and letting her have her cake and eat it to, or if you should continue to be friendly to keep that door open.

I think this is an age old DB question, that apparently doesn't end after the M does. And if you were hoping for an answers from me...you're probably disappointed. But how about some completely hypothetical suggestion?

What would happen if you came out and asked her, the next time she calls, in a purely curious way, "why do you call me to chat? I thought once we were divorced, that would be the end of our R, and didn't realize you wanted a friendship afterwards also?"

The primary difference on the choices most happy/least unhappy is about perspective, like is the glass half empty or half full. Focusing on happy leads to happy outcomes and focusing on settling leads to eventual resentment and unhappiness. I don't understand why you think you can't have it all (career, kids, & spouse). Don't sell your H short until you've exhausted all your options. The "possible going separate ways" got his attention, let him know what would make you most happy, ask him the same, and go from there.

My conundrum continues, xw called again today. It's traditional eastern orthodox christmas (I was raised that way, she was not when we met) she called with the greeting in my ancestor's language (not hers) and among other things talked about each of us cooking the traditional foods today (haluski, holopchi, pirohi and kolachi). As usual, I was Mr. Nice/funny guy again and then got off the phone by pushing in on S14. Later I'm thinking "why would she want to get rid of me but keep all of my traditions & customs, etc" and "is she indoctrinating om into what used to be my, then our, ways?" Again, have an excuse being that's it's the solemn celebration of the birth of Christ, not the day to call her out on why she would call me. Don't hang out with many D'd people but this does not seem like normal behavior to want to call and be friendly. Maybe I'm making too big a deal out of it, this time last year would have loved to get any call from her and here I am now complaining about it. Will maybe look see about books on D.

Thing is, know it will happen tomorrow, the college national championship game, Ohio St vs. Florida. I'm from OH (not her) and would bet my last dollar she'll call after the game, maybe that's the time I'll grow the cohones to just say, "look, why are you calling, you D'd me and I thought I'd made it clear we can't be friends as long as om is around." Is it possible to not be friends but still leave the door open? That's what I'd want and it doesn't sound any more looney than to D someone but then want to be friends and continue doing the things you did with them.

Thing is, she has stated in the past, before and during D, that she wanted to be friends afterwards so can't ask her that one curiously. No, I've got to find another way but can't think of one right now. Any help out there? Suggestions, anybody, anybody? RonJon "Back to pondering"

RonJon,

Your actions make it pretty clear to her that you are okay with friendship, otherwise you wouldn't keep chatting away with her. Perhaps that's all she wants is to be friends; no ulterior motive at all.

I'm not sure what to tell you. Is it true that you can't be friends only with her? If that's all this is, will it be enough for you? I suspect not, but only you know that.

1) I wouldn't give any ultimatums. That's pretty controlling.
2) Decide if friendship is enough
3) If you can't just be friends, then I suggest you start being less friendly. You can still greet her nicely, but don't get into big conversations with her. If she calls about the game, either don't bother answering, or make it very short and say, "I gotta go" and get off the phone.

Me

JM, Yes I see where you are coming from that actions speak louderthan words, good point. Perhaps she does just want to be friends, no ulterior motive, at least consiously. Probably makes her feel better about leaving if she believes being just friends is OK. It all comes down to the om issue, I probably could just be friends if/when he is out of the picture but that backstab is the real roadblock.
1) Agree that ultimatum is not the right way to go.
2) Friendship is not enough after 24 yrs of marriage, only if it's a transition to getting back together.
3) Don't think I could not answer, kind of like can't hang up but can get out of the convo earlier if I stay focused. Had a plan for the post-game phone call, was going to say "thanks for calling and caring to sharing in the celebration, does this mean you want to give us a try?" But the Buckeyes lost badly and she didn't call probably thinking I'd be upset/grumpy as I would have been back in our M days but not anymore. Anyway, have finally thought of what I think is a good plan, let me know:

Like the DB book says, I'm going to work more on GAL so that when she does call, I'll maybe be with another woman and can't talk with her. Also will send the message that I'm not waiting around for her. Have been meaning to step up my social life anyway in 2007 so this all is coming together at the right time. I've heard that a man another womam/women is with makes him more attractive so may have hit upon on of those win-win situations. Am divorced afterall, right? RonJon "Here's to plans"