Hi Mama, I probably have the wrong approach to your sitch, so don't feel like you have to listen to me. I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing at all in my sitch, so I am not one to give advice. But I want to tell you what I see, and then others can perhaps respond to what I am about to say.
I know that timing is everything, and it may not been time for a "confront" and I don't know when it would be. But here's the thing. I think your H is still seeing the OW, and I don't think it's good to be in denial about that possibility. H is contacting her on vacation. And when he is with you alone at night he kisses you and says ILY. But he's still not ML with you, and when you mention it (like in your note) he skirts the subject and says how much he loves "you people". He is going back to work and he feels guilty. He's going back to the other world where she is, and he is not unentangled yet or you would feel VERY different right now about your sitch.
So I think at some point it will need to be addressed. Your R will be in limbo as long as H has OW. H has decided to stay married, but H has not ended the R with OW. Ending it would mean that H quit his job, you moved away and H NEVER spoke with her again. They will NEVER be "just friends". IMHO, which may not be right, but anyway I think at some point there will have to be a stand for your M about what you will and won't tolerate for YOU to stay married. I don't know how long you intend to give him to work it out, or if you have any kind of timeline for yourself. But H isn't talking to you about it, and has not even admitted that the R exists. What you will need is his willingness to DO WHATEVER IT TAKES for you to feel safe in your M. Have you read any of Harley's books "His Needs, Her Needs" or "How to Survive an Affair"? If H is really committed to staying in the M, then some C together or working together on "His Needs, Her Needs" - something that will get you both more honest and to the next level will be in order. Because I believe H is getting some of his needs met elsewhere, and you remain with some of your needs unmet in the M. At some point, I don't know when, you will need to make that correction or your M will not survive with happiness. It will just carry on, nice sometimes and flat and dissapointing sometimes. I think you can have it all Mama. But you will need to be a stand for your M and not settle for less than a GREAT M. You have worked so hard, and you are worth it.
How to navigate that transition, in your sitch, I dunno. But if I were you, I would be thinking about what kind of life you really want and what it would take to have it.
Meanwhile, I am glad you had a great time with H. It sounds like your talk about the house, and maybe another one in the future in a small town, was sweet. I just think it is a delicate balance between DBing and then getting complacent and sweeping things under the rug that need to get cleaned up in order to have true intimacy and happiness. But your H may need these things in small slow doses. You will know best. Just don't allow yourself to accept status quo indefinitely. What will make you happy? Enjoy each day, but also keep your eye on the prize
Of course if your horoscope is right, now is not the time. So maybe tuck this away for when it is time to consider it. I am rooting for you MamaBear
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Hi PL, I agree with you. H is still "involved" with OW and he is "sweeping" things under the rug as far as our conversations go. I don't know how to move forward on this though. Quitting his job is just not that easy, we are heavily in debt. I have applied for two waitressing positions in the last week but that is going to help us get by, not get out of debt. Maybe I'll see if I can bring up the counseling thing again, I don't know though cause he is very against it. I don't want to give him an ultimatim just yet either probably because of my fear of his reaction and that he may not choose me.
I'll jump in here. This is a really tough place for you to be in, and I respect your courage and conviction. This looks to me like your H has a lot of trouble giving up this fantasy life. I think once it ceases to be real, and by telling you he's committed to your M he's able to compartmentalize it into a stricly fantasy place for himself. This change for him is about discipline. It's about truly changing his reality. Whether you move away from OW or not may help or may not - the fact is that that is not the problem in your R, that's a determination your H needs to make about how he can best eliminate her from his consciousness. This is his job, not yours.
I think your H has to begin to see a fantasy image of YOU, and here's where you can help this all play out. Maybe there are things you can do to get him thinking about you in that way. Different things. Maybe you have to really do some 180s in this department. If your sexual interaction was all about him, let him know you're all about yourself right now, and loving it, or vice versa. Really get him curious. You don't have to be overt or detailed, but get that game going. Sooner or later he's going to have to respond to this.
I'm not sure whether I'm even aiming at the right target here, but my thoughts are that the OW is his issue. If he wants the M, then he has to figure out how to deal with this. Until things in the M are where you both want them to be, I think you need to accept that he is confused. He is likely deceiving himself as much as or more than he lies to you. I think his intentions are true, but he doesn't have the strength yet to do what's right. You need to continue to focus on what you can do to entice him, to make him want to work on things with you, to let him know there's a real reward in it for him. Then again, it might be time to put the pressure on him, lure him into the trap with you as the bait and then show him that he's not got a chance until he straightens up.
All in all, I think you're doing well.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, Thank you so much for your perspective on things.
Quote: I think his intentions are true, but he doesn't have the strength yet to do what's right.
I couldn't agree with you more. Now for the enticing part, I really like this idea. He needs to find me more exciting than his fantasy life with her. What to do?
Tomorrow night we are going to a local concert on the lawn complete with a blanket and picnic basket. I feel this could be my opportunity. Now mind you the band is not even the least bit romantic (the B-52's) but we will be alone together.
Been thinking more about 180's. I noticed lately that my H has been making comments about women we see at the pool, in a restaurant or on TV, he does not like a lot of makeup or even a little for that matter. He made a comment about Faith Hill that he likes her hair better now as it is more natural. So goal #1: be more natural. Problem is, I was not born a natural beauty and really need a little makeup to play up my features. I am fair skinned and if I don't put on mascara then I basically don't have any eyelashes (they're blond) So ladies, this one is for you: I need makeup advice for a blond, blue eyed, fair skin (with a little uneven redness) girl that is very plain to say the least.
2. My H is also very physical. He takes very good care of himself and constantly works out. I on the other hand am a binge dieter and on again off again excercisor. This one I think I can do on my own. H has a whole gym set up in our basement. I will start out down there. When son starts school I will start my walking/biking routine and try to turn it into running.
3. Although H would be the first to admit that he likes junk food he always comments on the fact that he doesn't like our kids eating it all the time. Time for me to clean out the cabinets and get our whole family on a health kick.
Sorry for rambling, just typing thoughts as I think them.
Mama, Any way these ideas you mentioned could be done together, as a couple? Could you work out together? could you work out a healthy eating plan and clean out the cupboards together? The more you do together as a team the more your R will become important to both of you. Just my thoughts. P.S. I'd kill to hear an ILY from my W! I'm jealous, Mama
I hear exactly what you are saying. I am so fair that my eyelashes and eyebrows aren't just blond - they are translucent. Without any makeup, I look nearly ill. With drugstore makeup, I look like I'm trying way too hard to make money in an illicit fashion.
You should check out Just for Redheads. They sell wonderful colors for those of us who are SO fair that the "fair" cosmetics sold in the grocery store make us look tan.
They have very light brown mascara, for instance, that makes you look like other people look like without any makeup on at all.
Today was H's first day back to work after our mini vacation. I automatically assumed that he would be home late. Surprise, he was home early and picked up our girls from school. I took D9 and S5 back to school in the evening for an ice cream social and H stayed home with D10, who didn't want to go (too cool, I guess). When I came back H was very quiet and not feeling good; acid reflux (which he has been having for the last few days) and an upset stomach. Could he be experiencing depression because he may have broken up with her? I don't know. But I do know that I acted towards him out of love and respect.
Regarding the make up and natural look you want to achieve, I have a few ideas. My daughter had a close friend who was very fair, and she would have her eyelashes and eyebrows tinted. I do not know how much it costs or how long it lasts, but I think it lasts for months. I know it is important that you go somewhere that is reputable for this, but it did look great and really pretty without any added mascara or pencils.
I think most men like a "natural look". To me what this means is they don't want to notice the makeup more than they notice you. So you can wear some, as long as it is subtle and makes you look better so that YOU are what they see. And you know, "plain" is an old story Mama. Most of the super models are "plain" without the right treatment.
I don't know exactly where you live - do you live near any big malls or high-end department stores (like Nordstrom or ?) ? You can make an appointment at the Clinique counter for a free make up consultation, for example. They will spend hours with you, trying out colors, shadows and pencils, new applications of makeup, etc. until you hit on what you like. It's just important to find someone who understands what you are looking for, and who is good at it. Tell them you want a "no make-up" look and they can help you, for free! Then the next week, you can try a differnt one, like Lancome. Check them all out, pamper yourself :-) Of course, they are hoping you will buy some of their products, and maybe you will want to. But you will get ideas too, that you can then copy or improvise with drug store products as a supplement to some of theirs.
This will be a really fun 180 mama! An updated look is really a lot of fun. I wish I could go with you!
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
PL, Thanks!! I actually live in a suburb of Chicago so there are LOTS of malls around. Since we are going out tomorrow night I plan on going to one, with S5 in tow to look for something cute but sexy to wear, maybe something new from Vicky's secret and I will definitely try to stop at a makeup counter as well.
One of my brothers lives in CA so maybe someday when I'm out there we can hook up. I would really love it!! You sound like such a smart and wonderful lady; someone that I would LOVE to be friends with
So maybe tuck this away for when it is time to consider it. I am rooting for you MamaBear 