Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums Infidelity/Extramarital Affairs/Jealousy Muddle's Waters II

Things have been decent between us since yesterday. We had a talk yesterday that seemed to really churn up a lot of "old" stuff - I know, it's poor DBing, but it came up and we got into it. A lot of the old issues she had with the way I perceived and reacted to the A in the begining came up. One striking thing was that she felt I was overly concerned with appearing to be the "good guy" who was being victimized.

We got into quite a lot - and I don't think I could go into all of it here, but I'll try and hit on the points that stand out to me now. She told me that she wanted to be sure that I didn't see her doing this as the end for us, because she doesn't. And practically in the next breath, she says that she doesn't understand how I didn't see that our R was over long before this A started! I told her that I don't think that what happens in the past determines the future. She asked if I thought that once this A was in the past that it wouldn't be a factor in our R.

We talked about the fact that she was willfully crossing the line here, and she volunteered that she couldn't say it "just happened" and that this would change things. I think this is where the old justifications started coming up again. She kept telling me that I couldn't see this for what it was, that I saw it all as a fantasy. I told her that I wasn't concerned with what was happening between them, that that wasn't the focus to me because even if it dissapeared things wouldn't all of a sudden be right between us. She told me that she saw all of our problems, and that they spelled the end for us. I told her that I saw them too, and that through the past several weeks and months I have done my best to see these problems for what they were, not solely through my wishfully optimistic lenses.
I told her once again that I love her unconditionally and that I will love her no matter what she does, and regardless of our situation. I also told her that I have to look out for myself and that this doesn't mean I'm going to put up with her doing whatever she wants to. I told her that if I thought our relationship got to the point where it was unhealthy for me, I would end it, but I wouldn't stop loving her. I guess I want to be completely clear with her that I don't need her, and I'm not going to compromise myself beyond what I accept. I think this got across, although she was pretty emotional, and admitted that she was plenty confused and her head was spinning.
Anyway, I think this talk accomplished a lot in that WE both were able to put our focus on our R and not confuse the A with the problem. Even though this isn't big news to me, the fact that we can see eye to eye on this point is somewhat big. Lots of ILYs from her too. Affection too.
She acknowledges that this is painful for me, and she kept appologizing for it. It was quite rough though, because I kept feeling like I was always on the verge of saying something disrespectful to her, something judgemental that would push her away. She told me that she just had to do what was right by her. I did end up telling her that I didn't respect the choices she was making, and that I didn't like who she was choosing to be because of this. This didn't go over badly, surprisingly. I think she understood - but it did somewhat spark the good/bad dichotomy conversation.
It was very clear to me that she had no idea where I was in my mind relative to this whole situation. It's kind of promising that she was interested, and surprised to see my level of understanding, even though she didn't buy that I have been trying to be empathetic and compassionate. When she tried to tell me that I saw things completely wrong and that I didn't see things for what they were. I had no idea what was between them, so I couldn't judge this except relative to my emotions. I told her that I could judge this simply on the fact that she was having an inappropriate relationship while we were married. This brought around my point that what was between us had nothing to do with what was going on between them. It didn't justify anything.
She kept questioning my intentions, and she vocalized that she was fearful about what I would do while she wasn't here. I told her that I wanted to be married to her, and that I wanted to stay open to reconciliation, and that I wasn't going to jeopardize this by allowing myself to act based on reactive emotions. I did tell her that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her (I know, too much pressure, but I think it was appropriate given the conversation), to which she responded that I don't have anyone to compare her to!

Ok, if you've gotten this far, I'm amazed! I know that this talk went into a lot that we haven't been able to communicate about, and I think it accomplished a lot in that we might just be a little more on the same plane than we were. I know she's lost and she's trying VERY hard to shut out a lot of the thoughts that make this difficult for her. The thing that gets me is that she has been acting much more loving, giving me physical affection and caring for me through words and actions. I write this off somewhat to easing her guilt (and part of me is concerned that this is pity as well), but to me it is an expression of love. It's still there and while she's taking this huge step AWAY from us, she's taking several strides towards me as well.

I have an impending sense of doom, feeling a bit like I'm going to relive a bit of the trauma I went through initially - but I'm also determined to make great use of this time, remain appreciative of my life and everyone in it, and have fun. I have allowed myself to really enjoy being close to her again, and while this vulnerability is somewhat a risk (I can see benefits as well as detriments), I keep reminding myself that if we can help each other through this with genuine compassion and caring we stand a much better chance at the other end.

So, those are my ambivalent feelings and some recent events. Don't know what to expect going forward beyond having a lot of time to spend with my S4 that I can really focus on.

Muddle,

For some reason, I don't see this convo as inappropriate or bad DB at all. I think at a certain point in a sitch, probably where yours is now, it may be as important to be able to have these talks and NOT have them turn into fights, i.e. validate and express SOME level of understanding, than it is to avoid them altogether.

Overall, based on what you posted, you did fine. I am more confused than ever at her apparent openness about these decisions she is making, and her idea that they don't change things, but whatever, WAS don't make a whole lot of sense most of the time.

I think you are doing fine. You're taking the MUCH harder road, but to those who say you're crazy for taking it, I say both roads, laying down the "law" or riding this trip out both COULD lead to the same places, either the end of your M, or reconciliation. I think you and I happen to believe that whatever the case, reconciliation based on her freely chosen decision to return to the marriage, rather than something "forced" on her by you, will result in a deeper, stronger and probably longer lasting marriage.

You have to do right by you, based on what you want, and can handle. I think you are doing just that and I love your PMA at the end. When is this trip? I'll try to be on more then to make sure I can help in any way.

GH

Muddle,
I must echo everything GH said. He beat me to it and probably said it much better anyway! I see nothing wrong with sharing your feelings and thoughts, as you did, re the situation. It's one thing to clearly state your views, its another to carry on endlessly and use those feelings as a vindictive weapon. You aren't doing that. Again, it just amazes me how the unfaithful spouse can turn things around to somehow blame you for not really being empathetic enough. Incredible! But par for the course. I think the WAS believes that what he/she doing is really moral (because they want to be good people)! He/she gets frustrated when we, the LBS, are so out of it that we can't see how hard they believed they tried. That's why you hear that old cliche "he/she had nothing to do with the end of our M" To them its clearly been over for a long time (in their heads) and why don't we see this as clearly as they do. "I never would have been unfaithful if I believed there was the slightest chance". My W told me she tried everything, what everything is is still a mystery to me cuz I don't remember anything! I guess although we have trouble understanding, there actually is a rational mindset there. You just have to dig deep to find it.

Thanks GH. The trip starts today - I left for work and she won't be there when I get home at lunch time - and she'll be home Sunday night. I'm doing ok - it's a really beautiful morning, crisp and clear, 68 degrees. Really nice. Don't want to spoil it with my mental pollution.

Thanks for your words, I too think it's important to communicate, but it's difficult when your feelings are so at odds. I think this is where these conversations are either helpful or harmful - in that you can easily disrespect the feelings of your partner, even without meaning to and consciously trying not to, because you're trying to be aware of and articulate your own. We did ok there the night before.

Last night is a bit of a different story. She put the blinders on, and wasn't open like the previous night. I should have anticipated this, but I remained open, and I talked with her. She was a lot more negative about our R than the night before, even referring to our conversation as proof that I can't communicate because by the end of the conversation I was going in circles and she couldn't understand me. The night before she blamed this on her confusion and all the different thoughts spinning around in her mind. The one thing that really bugged me is that she talked about my smothering affectionate behavior, and how this was one of those things that have bothered her since we have been together. She seems to think that this is me, and that I can't and shouldn't have to change this. I think this is something that has to do with my own insecurity, and that it is something I need to resolve within myself. I don't think affection is bad, but rather what I'm trying to get out of it. To her, it's more the timing. For example, last night we went out in the car for a bit, and she told me that she thought I was being a bit weird again. I told her that I guess I couldn't be as overtly nice to her at the moment because I was managing some difficult emotions at the moment. She didn't really like that answer, because somehow she either thinks I'm superhuman and shouldn't treat her any way other than the way I want to, or she is so consumed with how she is feeling at the moment that she doesn't have room in her psyche for my feelings or state of mind. I'm betting on the latter. I told her that I still feel the same way about her and I was looking forward to a nice evening with her. Later on, she was sitting on the floor putting away some of S4s stuff and I came in and kissed her (in my effort to show her that I was ok and felt good about her). This apparently annoyed her because of the timing - it was inappropriate as she was doing something else. She later told me that she remembers a time when we first got together where she was doing dishes and I walked up behind her and hugged her and she thought "this is going to be a problem". She then said that this incompatability wouldn't be an issue if she was more invested in me, and that she hasn't been in a while.

So in light of this, it would be VERY easy to be discouraged. I initially reacted, but refused to dwell there and bounced back quite quickly. I realized that a lot of her motivation for thinking this had to do with justifying her actions (which she even admitted to trying very hard to minimize the importance of) and making herself feel better. She told me that she was viewing this step as a huge step, a big change, and that now she needs to see it as something insignificant and unimportant in order to eventually see it for what it is.

Well, I get to try out being a single dad for a few days - we'll see how that goes. I'm really looking forward to it, as it really will be a bit of a break from my life too. I almost hate to say it, but I'm looking forward to being without my W and her needs for a bit. Thanks for being there.

Whatis,

Thanks. I don't know if I agree about the rational side of a WAS. I tend to think the intellect is there to support decisions made based on their lower functions. Little gems like: "if there weren't something real between us, we wouldn't still be doing this." "We wouldn't risk all this pain for other people if it wasn't worth it down the line." Your line too about how her actions prove that there was no hope show this same sort of reverse reasoning.

I wish my W could say she tried, because I don't really think she has, nor do I think that she would say she really has. I think that's her way, poor self esteem, etc., to not try rather than try and fail. And, yes, everyone else is at fault for everything that's wrong in her life.

You're right, she does need to believe that this A has nothing to do with the end of our M. My W, unlike a lot of WASs reported on here, is VERY forthcoming with her reasoning. In the beginning of this A, she TOLD me that she had to convince HIM, to make him feel better, that our M was already doomed, even though she didn't think this herself, because she was telling me that she wanted to be with me also. Now I guess she convinced the two of them. What does that make you think?

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She later told me that she remembers a time when we first got together where she was doing dishes and I walked up behind her and hugged her and she thought "this is going to be a problem". She then said that this incompatibility wouldn't be an issue if she was more invested in me, and that she hasn't been in a while.

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Hmmmm, I see this as something my W could easily have said and may very well think. I do these kinds of things all the time now, mainly because I want to, and WAY off in the distance as a secondary reason, because I know it was something she was missing in our R... or so I thought. MAYBE, and I admit that this is some of the "easy to get discouraged" bit you mentioned, she/your W was missing it in general but doesn't really want it from me/you right now... or maybe ever. Maybe the idea of OM doing these things seems appealing to them while us doing it is "bad timing" even though there really never is GOOD timing.

I think overall, this kind of behavior COULD be perceived as needy and an attempt to get them to reciprocate. I know you and I see it as just what you said "I'm going to act towards you how I want to and I don't feel the need to curtail that simply because of your actions." In short, I don't give a crap what you are doing, it won't affect my unconditional love for you.

I suppose that's why R talks and such are advised against. I suppose these kinds of actions MAY be akin to us saying ILY all the time or professing our undying love. It's pressure and something MAYBE better left undone.

That all said, I still believe in us expressing ourselves in these ways but if you know for sure, as your W actually told you, that this kind of thing, the little kisses, hugs, etc, are not really doing anything positive, maybe it's time to slow down on them.

As for your "free time" I really hope you manage to have a good time. I know in a lot of ways it sucks, but as you have already pointed out, there IS a way to make this a GREAT time for you and S4.

GH

I got home to find that the cable company had cut our cable - the upstairs neighbor is moving out and they cut ours by mistake. I didn't get a chance to post. I was busy with my son for the most part anyway. It's funny because I'm so aware of my part in feeling horrible about things when I allow myself, or rather make myself feel bad. I'm a little nervous about how I'm going to sleep tonight. The surge of sickness/anger/rage that swelled up in me when I saw the condoms in her bag is not something I want to keep feeling. So I won't, when I can help it, but there's no telling what my subconscious will do.

One thing that really got in my head the other day, and I don't really think it is significant as far as how things will play out, is that my W said that even if they (W and OM) decide to call it off they plan to always remain friends. She just can't have him out of her life. My internal instant reaction to this was "Ok, well then I guess we're not going to work out." I know that none of us can see what the future holds, so this kind of talk is not something that I worry about. At some level, there will be an ultimatum type thing though, because I don't want to have a pathetic excuse for a marriage where she isn't committed to anything marriagewise (because that really REQUIRES no contact) and is just in it for the security and for our son. I don't want that. I guess the fact that in my own mind I didn't react with an appeasing thought, trying to accomodate her wants to hopefully get my own way is significant to me.

Another thing from over the weekend, and again yesterday, she made a comment about being my wife, saying that this entitled her to certain treatment. She said yesterday that she is still my wife and that it aint over till it's over. It's like she is going to or trying to milk her current situation for everything that it's worth without putting into the M what the M and I am entitled to. I say entitled, but that's not exactly what I mean, it's more that being married is an agreement to meet each other's needs. She's not really doing any of that. Although, in the past week or two she has been at the very least conscienscious of my feelings, and trying to be nice for my sake. I'll give her that.

She told me yesterday that she REALLY didn't like the person that I became when this was all going on. She thought I became very mean. I was amazed to hear this, because I was determined to act kindly towards her, and I know that I did. I didn't argue, even though she raged at me. I don't know if this is projection, or if she was painting me as the bad guy again so it wouldn't make her feel like such a horrible person to go take this trip. I wish that she would recognize the distinction between the person I am and the person she wants me to be because of how it helps her manage her emotions.

Well, I survived the night Actually, I really enjoyed last night, it was nice to hae some time to myself after S4 fel asleep. I ended up falling asleep while watching TV. I woke up this morning, and of course the first thing I thought about was her. And, of course, where she was, what she was doing. Then I said enough, and stopped. I'm going to get going to the gym in a bit, then I have a bunch of fun things planned to do with S4.

Glad you're doing well. Keep up the PMA and check back with us when you can.

GH

Muddle,
We're always the bad guys! How else can they legitimize what they are doing. She should be kissing your a** for still being there! You've become so mean. What a load...
Anyway, hang on and have the time of your life with your son (just to spite her!). It's a tough road but you are navigating it like an expert.