The issue that your W has is not that you get angry, or anything like that. After all, it is clear that the OM has far greater anger issues. This is not a logical decision that your W has made to reject you until you fix your anger issues.
The real issues are that she isn't attracted to you and doesn't respect you. That's what you have to change, and you have to start by asserting yourself more (in a loving way) in the relationship, in my opinion. Your W has clearly taken your love completely for granted. She doesn't "get it" at all.
I'm emailing you the Making Her Happy book by David Cunningham. I think it has tremendous value for those of us whose W's love us, but are no longer attracted to us.
Quote: -We also talked strategy, i.e. she said that she has felt all this time that everything I do and say is from a book. She feels like she is waiting for something genuine from me. She still has zero respect for books or counseling but claims to respect me for trying to do what I feel is right.
In other words, she feels that you are trying to follow a formula to get her back. She doesn't feel that you have changed because your own neediness is too obvious (I struggle with the same thing, as you know).
The LORD is near to all who call on him, to all who call on him in truth." (Psalm 145:18)
GH, hugs to you. You have been really putting forth a lot of effort and ignoring a lot of frustration you felt, I'm so sorry that you are in this spot now. You posted a lot of things, and as usual are really good at the self analysis, but one thing that stuck out for me, that I have to comment on was your post about feeling like a fraud, that your changes are not genuine. We've discussed this before, and I know I have felt the same way. The changes we are all trying to make in ourselves take time, apparently longer than it may take for our spouses to pull their heads out, in a way it's like practice, we can't expect to drop all of our negative communication styles and habits in a year, or less. Be proud that you recognize where you need development, and as long as you are conscious of that, I think you're in a good place (emotional pain not withstanding).
You can't beat yourself up for "reverseDB-ing" in such a conversation. Maybe, regardless of results or outcome, it is a good thing for your W to see some raw honest emotion. That is not from a book, it's real.
Anyway, again, our sitches our similiar. They can't fathom a divorce, but want to explore their other feelings as well. I agree with RBinBR. For a woman, at least me and it sounds like maybe your wife too, you gotta stand up for yourself. Decide your boundaries and stick to them, this does not mean to be cruel or cold, but she doesn't sound like she's facing reality at all. (Yes, I realize I give advice I don't necessarily follow).
Take your break from the boards. I have been too. You know what to do, you said it, take care of yourself, love your boys, you'll figure it out.
Hope I made sense. I feel out of synch with posting, it's been a few!
BTW, yesterday morning I asked said, very matter of factly, because that was how I was thinking about it, that I was confused by something. She lost her engagment ring some time ago and has been talking about replacing it. Even on Sunday when we were at the mall, she dragged us into a jewelery store and looked at a ring.
So I asked W "I am curious and confused about something and in light of our upcomming anniversary, I wanted to get it clarified. You STILL keep looking at rings despite all that is going on. I have to admit to you that this ring thing is one of the things that has gotten me upset over the past couple days because before last night happened, I had been planning on replacing your ring for our anniversary. (she mumbled something about money). Money is not the issue. We can afford it and you know it. The issue is that it seems totally inappropriate right now. Am I wrong? I would like to know what your thoughts are on this before that time comes."
She remained silent. She knew what I was asking and so did I. Was it more passive/aggressive stuff? Dunno. It was the truth. We already laid all the rest out the night before so WTH.
Yesterday, in the middle of dinner with the boys, and on purpose at that time, I told W "Just so you know I am above board with this and not trying to start anything, I want to let you know that I DO want to know what's up for next month. Please, think about it and let me know what you feel would be best for us to do for our anniversary. I can't say I will agree, but I would like to know your thoughts."
She said she WOULD think about it, thanked me for being "normal" about asking her and doing it directly, and we went on having a nice dinner...and nice night...and nice morning...that's the thing...my life, contrary to many of the sitches here...is for the most part, REALLY nice. Fake, but really nice too. Ah, such tangled webs we weave.
Thanks hon. I know, I am not a fraud, I just feel like one, not because my changes are not real, but because I realize SHE was too big a motivating factor. That's all.
As for the standing up for myself, I think I do more of that than I post... or maybe i don't, and I DO think she sees the reality of the sitch, it's just that she's SO far in fantasy land it doesn't matter.
She even pulled out the "I just want the kind of love I see on TV and in the movies, where I get swept off my feet and I can't help myself." BS...geez.
For me, this will either work or not. She admitted that I had changed but A) She didn't believe it was real and B) That even so, she still didn't feel the "spark" and kept comparing it to what she felt for "him" and it just wasn't the same...well, duh, but WTH, who am I to say that.
Anyway, I don't see much choice for me here, or should I say I DO have choices but it's clear to me what mine is and I am going to just "do it" come hell or high water.
Quote: that's the thing...my life, contrary to many of the sitches here...is for the most part, REALLY nice. Fake, but really nice too.
GH, this really struck me and describes my sitch to a tee! the difference for me is that while your wife is at least somewhat honest about her feelings my H is not at all. I would welcome the chance to talk to my H about things.
I am sorry you feel like you are back to "square zero". You can be thankful that you are able to have dialog with your W about your problems.
Me 54 DS19 and DS17 Married 06/1989 Divorced 01/2011
Hey GH, I too have been away,but have checked in from time to time because it DOES help me sometimes. Only thing i can say is after all you have been through, and if your W ever does realy come around,believe me, THE HARDEST WORK IS YET TO COME. I personally am still at a point where i dont think i am going to make after 2 months of my W showing me love like never before... after the A.In a way i think that is what makes it worse.I am now just so angry at what happened and why, that i dont know what to do. So my advice to you would be that i think it is time that YES, you do need to take a stand, either you leave or her leave, but you should not have to share your W with anyone. This is why i dont give advice alot,because i am afraid someone will actually take it,but that is how i see it from here,and personally think the only way you, as well as her will know what you want.She needs to see life without GH! Who is going to be there when she needs something..him NO! What about the kids when she needs something and you are not there.will it be him...No! More than likely it will be him running away when he thinks he actually has to commit to a woman with a family,and actually may have some real responsibilities because of it.Let her go to him,and see what a real man HE IS NOT! Your the only MAN in her life, and as soon as you take that away from her, it will hit her..YES there will be much pain for you,and maybe the kids..but personally (i do respect you very much for hanging in there like you have)if you had done something like this when this all started you may be in the same position as me right now.Trying to understand how someone can love me so much now,and want to spend every minute with me, and you be the one wondering if you want it to work. The ball will soon be in your court, and it WILL be you who decides whether YOU want your marriage,and if you can live with what has happened. 3 months ago i would have given my left arm to be where i am today, but now question how i can make it another day,until my anger and resentment subside.....and will it ever? Anyway GH...sorry for the probably bad advice..but that is just how i see it. BEST OF LUCK!! DeeJay
GH---first off, lots of hugs. don't EVER doubt that you have put your entire self into being selfless, self-aware and genuine in your changes. Yes, we see therpists, read books and guide ourselves down this path, no one has divine knowledge....we're all pushed to change to better ourselves from experiences in life and what that leads us to.
Second, you handled your conversation like a CHAMP. Who cares if you cried, if you lost it. You're NOT a robot. It's normal and human....and I would bet that it helped W to see that you're normal.
OK, now I'm gonna give you my 2 cents. This is in light of my recent revelations of my own sitch and your "note to self" in your post above....I DO think that your W is in MLC. Maybe AmyC or someone can verify. So much of what she says speaks directly to this. Here are some things that pop out:
1) MASS confusion, wanting you as a back up while she experiments 2) Lots of shame and guilt and pain in her 3) "insanity" of actually wondering why this is hard for you 4) Pinning EVERYTHING on you 5) Inability to look at her own mess and guilt and running away for the "fix" in OM again. 6) Childhood issues of being controlled, not loved, whatever
I could go on and on, but I suggest you hop on over to the MLC thread to read the articles (perhaps you already have). You may literally fall into tears, as I did.
Of course, this is not to say that the MLC wasn't "triggered" by marital discourd and dissatisfaction....I don't like the school of thought that says this is something they are going through independent of the spouse's actions and has nothing to do with me. It does. I take that responsibility....but, if in MLC, you learn to understand that once the ball rolls, it's NOT about anything do.
I only point you in this direction, ask you to explore, b/c once I did it helped me TREMENDOUSLY to detach, to see that my H's actions were not impacted by mine, that he was on a "journey" all on his own. Also, as OT always reminds you, realizing that it was MLC helped me to set boundaries, to be comfortable in the separation and not always be on eggshells. To expect the worst and not take it personally. I basically stopped trying and dropped the rope all the way.
I suggest you do the same, no matter what she's going through. It's time for you to separate, however you choose to do that in the same house. You go on being GH, making changes to better YOUR life, take care of your KIDS, your CAREER, your HOUSE and your LIFE. Be a single dad in your mind, be a friend to your W, but watch yourself first. Detach not just for space for HER, but for your emotional protection. There is nothing you can do to help W, SHE NEEDS TO HELP HERSELF. Even if she looks to you for answers, as she seems to do b/c of her childhood issues of being controlled and not being able to really use the freedom she wants, just be there for her, but not giving her direction. She needs to go the distance and come back on her own. It will be hellish for you to watch, so this is the time that detaching and being strong is best.
So, set some boundaries. Treat her like a friend, only do things you would for a friend, with no expectations or strings attached. Be kind, gentle, but firm in letting her know that you dropped the rope. That independence comes with the hard stuff too, like figuring out your own life for yourself, withotu the comfort of your H doting on you all the time. Without the comfort of knowing you'll always have a M in the end.
Get this through to yourself too. She cannot rationalize now. She cannot "try." Yes, it's damned unfair. It's crazy and doesn't make sense. She is not thinking straight and expecting the unreal. She's in a fog, she's confused and in pain, she's terribly unhappy. It's not you. Once you let that go, and understand their "temporary insanity" (a concept used by former MLC'ers, so I'm not being patronizng) it's easier for you to accept and not fight.
DB, but in a different way. Not in teh way you thought, where things you di/said were hoped to make a difference. It does, so it's important for you to be kind and strong, but you're the light afar right now.
Keep the dialogue going. Don't ask her questions about how appropriate things are and not, just tell her your decision and let it go. Ex: the ring. Don't ask her if she thinks it's right. Just tell her "you know, this is a confusing time for both of us, so why not hold off on things like that, it gives us both mixed messages." Say it with a smile. My H did the same thing, "confused' but wanting to buy a car, revamp the house, do all sorts of other 'permanent' things. I backed off from all.
So, hang in here. Start reading the MLC stuff, and back off. Turn yourself to YOUR life now...walk away from the madness.
GH Your blowout and the sitch sounds almost word for word like mine (except my w is going the gay route)! What our w's are doing sounds so insane to anyone with a brain, but to them it's right over their heads. The wedding ring thing is typical as is the lack of ability to look at separation as reasonable. My w has a little shrine in our bedroom with all my cards, little gifts etc. displayed. Does that make sense? She also told me "I think we can still live together" and I replied "You really are f****** nuts aren't you" (I'm usually more gentle and polite). My point, if you try and figure out where her head is at you'll go insane. I don't anymore, in fact, I've taken to jotting down every bizarre thing she says for fun e.g. "I've always been honest with you about everything except this affair" Yes, you are truly a saint dear!!!You are right GH GAL and grow as a person and a father. I have found so many amazing things about myself and about life since this mess began. I hope my w comes around but if she doesn't I am a much better person than I was before. You will be too. Lastly, don't push therapy, counselling etc anymore. You have given her your 2 cents worth (as I did with my w) and now they must make their own journeys. Stay strong GH.
I'm so sorry to see this news, I know how much it hurts. But, I can't say I'm surprised. To be honest, I expected it. And, you already knew -- that is why you were snooping to begin with. Trust me, if you think something is going on, odds are EXTREMELY high that you are right. That is, trust me, you should trust yourself.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much whether your W is in MLC. It doesn't matter WHY she is acting like she is. You can spin a thousand stories, and none of them will be right. Quit worrying about her. Quit trying to fix her. Quit trying to control her.
Now, what to do....
Leave the M. She isn't in it, you shouldn't be either. This DOES NOT MEAN having an A, kicking her out, etc... It means LETTING HER GO. You MUST let her go if she is to figure out what SHE WANTS FOR HERSELF. You can leave the door open for a renewed M, but QUIT HOLDING IT OPEN, and quit trying to get her through the door. Let her go, LET HER GO, let her go.
You need to find your own boundary here. If you are unwilling to live in a sham marriage (as I hope you are), then you need to take a stand and communicate this. I suggest you come up with your own plan about what you will do if things continue this way.
Call her on her BS -- it is hard for her to talk to you because SHE IS CHEATING, not because you are crying. She is annoyed with you and finding fault with you BECAUSE SHE IS CHEATING AND FEELS LIKE CRAP FOR HOW SHE IS TREATING YOU. The more she can find to pick on, the less bad she feels about herself.
Quit taking the crap.
Tell her directly that you will make your own decisions about separation and divorce. Tell her to get over herself, you choices are about what you need for a good life, not to punish her.
Validate her pain and confusion and tell her she is free to pursue her own happiness and that you will not judge her for doing so. If she chooses to sincerely try with you, it doesn't mean she can't change her mind in 6 months. It does mean, though, that she cannot continue to treat you with so little decency in the interim.
Quit being so nice to her -- tell her like it is. If she thinks that you will not be angry and hurt when she lies to you and cheats with OM, she is insane. A romantic R outside of your M is NOT ACCEPTABLE to you.
Your W is lying to you, betraying you. She is not being open and honest. She is not committed to restoring the M.
BTW, the most important thing to do is to quit giving her more of the same. That is driving her to continue to look for more elsewhere. I know it isn't a great time to bring it up, but the "accidental butt massage" = "accidental brush of the breast."
Quit pretending that your M is intact. It is not. Make new friends, go out, enjoy yourself. Do not base any of your decisions on what you think it will make her do or not do.
Your W is all over the place. Until you cut her loose, no real progress will be made. Until YOU MOVE ON AND LET GO, no real progress will be made. Again, this does not mean deciding on ending your M, but it does mean letting the M go for awhile. I'd suggest putting a time limit on this. Perhaps in one month revisit where you are and see if you are ready for separation or divorce. But, by all means, continue to let W know that you are not going to stay in an empty, non-monogomous M.
Stay mad for awhile. Quit being her H, she is not being your W. She is not treating you with decency or respect.
And yes, if she comes back again, expect even a few more incidents again after that until YOU really set a firm boundary and sincerely mean to enforce it.
Your W has a LOT to deal with and as long as it is easier for her to use OM to cope with things than to give him up, she will continue to do so.
You will be OK. You will be happy. You may find yourself in a good M with W or you may not.
Quit internalizing this setback -- it is HER cheating, HER lack of committment, HER lack of growth that is coloring her view of you. Don't accept her misperception.
Quit standing still for her criticism -- you are a wonderful father and HUSBAND who has stood by her, extended extreme compassion, stayed faithful, and tried your hardest to make things good for both of you.
Your pain and anger and confusion are justified.
Anyway, again, just LET HER GO, LET THE M GO... Quit trying to figure her out. Really. STOP. Do not obsess over MLC. Do not worry about what kind of strange power OM has over her. Do not worry about her disfunctional family of origin. What matters is that she is not in the M. It does not matter why.
By all means, DO NOT tell her what she wants or needs. Stick with what YOU want and what YOU need. You can ASK her what she wants and needs, but don't project your wants and needs, what you think is right, onto her. SHE DISAGREES.
Just live well for yourself for awhile. Make clear to her that an uncommitted M with you is not in the cards. Tell her that you will not remain more committed to the M than she is. Figure out what you want.
Major hugs, Oldtimer
(Oldtimer, Oldtimer's H, and Newtimer all doing splendidly.)
