From what Amy says, his arrival is something to be greatly anticipated and celebrated!
Quote: ...Frank was/is one of my DB idols. His major contribution to these boards has traditionally been through his detailed and beautifully posted accounts of his own journey but when he does stop in on a thread, it is usually right to the point and spot on.
Again, great praise from another person I greatly respect here! I am excited to receive his perspective/thoughts.
Quote: If you can hear what he has to say, Frank can help you, of that I am sure.
I'd prefer to think in terms of WHEN I hear what he has to say rather than IF I CAN. But that's just me.
Quote: ...he does have a knack for getting to the root of the issues in a hurry.
I look forward to his shedding light/clarity on my sitch. I feel really lost right now and am grasping to keep afloat in working to keep my courage fired, my faith fueled, and my determination driven
Back at work again. My friend keeps asking me why the hell I work so hard for my MIL who is not appreciative of my efforts at all? No easy answer. First and foremost, it's my work ethic. If I don't do this stuff, no one will. But on the other hand, I am certain that my chair will not get cold when I am no longer employed here. <shrug>
The second reason must be that I don't want to disappoint my MIL (although I am not sure how I could with as hard as I have worked for her for 6 years) because I still hold on to hope that with my changes and God's help, my M will reconcile.
Or, am I just driving myself crazy? My W is like so many spouses I have read about here who are so sure they are done and will never love their S again. As Amy pointed out, my job (as DB says) is to work on changing ME, which includes GAL. Right now I am moving, but don't think I am moving forward. Again, since I don't know where I am going, ANY road will get me there, right?
I wrapped up my whole persona in being a H and father. I lost me. No wonder my W lost interest in me long ago. I am having such a difficult time remembering what I found fun b4 I met my wife. I know that she fell in love with me for a REASON (or 2 or 3). I am so unclear on how to find ME again. I read a great book, Wild at Heart which talks about a man finding his heart that he lost. Sounds like a great concept, and I know the journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, but in which direction does that first step go. You see, I feel like I am blind and have NEVER been in this unfamiliar terrain. Ugh.
I know I will eventually be fine, it's just that right now I feel so weak and unsure. I actually always do land on my two feet despite my mistakes/messes. I just hate being in the valley, but that is where I learn what I am truly made of.
Any direction/suggestions for picking up my feet and moving in a positive/productive direction would be greatly appreciated. Again, I am going through my days, but if I am not with my children I feel lost and aimless. I know I won't feel this way forever, but that is NO consolation now. Perhaps working on a Sunday is part of my problem, no? I think it may be. Well, gotta get the heck out of here.
Quote: Oh, I'm not as mean as Amy says I am. I'm much worse.
If me fixing me and my sitch were easy, Amy wouldn't have called in the BIG GUNS, would she? She's read most, if not all, of my sitch and KNOWS I am in dire need of your help.
I am grateful for your willingness and welcome your efforts. Thank you.
I am excited as well. I am a whole lotta clay waiting to be molded into the man that God always intended me to be. I am hopeful that Frank will point me in the direction I need to travel to better myself.
You are a good and decent man. You love your kids and you love your wife. That much I know.
After 2 hours of reading, I still don't know what YOU really want. And who you are inside.
I know who you THINK you are though. Guilty. A people pleaser. Still looking for approval. Still feeling like you have to 'make up' for everything - whatever 'everything' is. You have to 'sacrifice' yourself because, well, you were BAD. You've been doing this all your life haven't you, either 'fixing' or 'being needy?' Being the guilty one?
I was like that too. Never feeling good enough. Or figuring that if I was 'needy' enough or codependent then my wife could NEVER leave me. How could she? I NEED her. Of course that continuously takes energy from her and as soon as she got the opportunity to be 'released' from those bonds she was out the door and in someone elses arms in a shot. And all OM had to do was just 'say' he loved her.
She was so empty, drained, like your wife is now. Your affair is a symptom of YOUR problems. It is the catalyst for her to run away from HER problems. It is not THE problem.
It was stupid and you were wrong. So what. It's over now. But understand THIS:
IF IT WASN'T THE AFFAIR, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING ELSE THAT TRIGGERED HER TO DO THIS. THIS HAS BEEN BUILDING ALL HER LIFE.
She is lost. She doesn't really know who she is. As a woman, as a wife, as a mother. She's running from all of these roles.
And you? You've been lost for years, haven't you? Are you tired of it? Are you ready to take that journey, the one to find your true self, the self you lost years ago? Or are you going to keep holding on to HER, thinking that if you hold on long enough, if you're GOOD long enough, it will all 'get better'? That's what you're doing, you focus on, and hold on to HER. And when she doesn't respond you beat yourself up for not being 'good'.
Where are YOU?
I don't see you. I looked everywhere in your threads and I don't see YOU there. Unless I am supposed to believe that YOU are a guy who just rolls over and does whatever he's told to do because he doesn't have ANY value if he doesn't do things for others. I know that feeling. I know when I felt it that it wasn't ME. So I'm sure that when I hear that you are feeling it I KNOW it isn't really YOU - it's the little boy inside who want's to feel loved.
Well, you ARE loved. Your kids love you. They don't love you because you do things for them. They love you just because you are you. They don't know if you are good or bad. They don't know if you are right or wrong. They only see your soul. And they see that you are worth being loved.
The people here on this board don't expect you to 'do things' for us yet we talk to you, and we show you unconditional love. We give you parts of our energy and our experience because we WANT to. Why? To make us feel superior? nope. Because we like to 'fix' people? Nope. We don't fix ANYBODY. If only it were that easy! And we (or at least AmyC, GH and I for example) don't Bullsh&t people to make them 'feel better'.
We're here because we hear your words and they call to us, they tell us 'here is a man who want's to break free of his chains'. We can't do it for you, but we can support you.
And we want you to. But we can't do it for you. Because you made those chains. Only you can break them.
So forget a lot of what you think is true. Most of it's wrong anyway. You aren't a bad man. What you did was wrong, and you've atoned for it. Let it go. Your wife made choices that are wrong. She knows it. She knows she loves you. But she also knows that for the past number of years that it has been a difficult job - loving you - because she doesn't know how to love you without losing herself. And she CAN'T let herself love you right now because she HAS lost herself. She can't love anyone right now. Not until she loves herself. She thinks these 'guys' will fill that void - but they won't. And she'll fall hard when she figures that out.
And this is the hardest part. Ready? Here you go: YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THIS. She has to figure this out on her own.
So here's your dillemma. You can keep holding on like you do, being meek and waiting for tidbits she might throw your way. Jumping when she says JUMP! You can keep punishing yourself, blaming your affair for this situation. You can keep telling yourself "She deserves to fool around after what I did". You can be that little boy who feels guilty. Unworthy.
or
You can be the man you are meant to be. ONE of you has to be strong, stable, unwavering, determined. A rock. For your KIDs sake and for HER sake it MUST be YOU.
She certainly isn't being strong, grounded or rational. Are you going to be? If not, then who will?
Some things you've said in previous posts....
Quote: I read a great book, Wild at Heart which talks about a man finding his heart that he lost.
Did you really read it? I read it. It is a somewhat Christian book that discusses how men were not meant to be 'nice'. Or domesticated. We were meant to be like lions. Strong, Wild, Dangerous, Protective, Leader. It talks about the world of "Posers", those who really are posing as someone else - not being who they really are. There is a quote I liked so much that I printed it in large letters on a paper and put it on my wall. It said:
Quote: The world of posers is shaken by a real man. You must let your strength show up because the world doesn't have a place for it. Fine. The world's screwed up.
Let people feel the weight of who you are and let THEM deal with it.
What does it mean? To me it means NOT to give in to being who you think OTHERS want you to be. Be who YOU are. And be proud of it.
Quote: I never worked to separate from my W to GAL during our M to nurture myself and allow her the opportunity to want to be with me. I truly believe that is the largest error I made because my needs were not being met b/c I was smothering her and she was running from me to "relax." I have only recently owned THAT.
SHE never learned to let you separate. You were both clinging to each other. It wasn't just you.
Once YOU truly separate yourself from her, she will see how much she really misses you. Right now she has you at her beck and call. You need to take that away from her. That's what DIVORCE means. She needs to see what if FEELS like NOW. Before she make a mistake and actually goes through with it.
Quote: SHE is the one who told me that I AM on the deed and that I could ask to be "bought out" of the house. I did verify that I am, in fact, on the deed. The house has a LOT of equity. I just don't feel that would be the right thing to do, regardless of the outcome of our M troubles. Does that make sense here? It certainly doesn't to most of my RL friends and family, except one
You are correct. I do not want to make her more upset than she already is. Her heart is hardended right now. I don't want to make it petrified.
I do believe I will sign my name off the deed regardless. Yes, even with my name still on the loan. I believe it is the right thing to do. Right is right, always. Everything else will all come out as it should. I have control over being true to myself.
You are being a martyr. You took on the risks of taking that loan with her, your income helped pay for it. When you just roll over like this you look like a poser. Be a lion. Don't you want her to respect you? Make sure you are doing the CORRECT and PRUDENT thing with this decision.
Quote: I know I will eventually be fine, it's just that right now I feel so weak and unsure. I actually always do land on my two feet despite my mistakes/messes. I just hate being in the valley, but that is where I learn what I am truly made of.
Yep, this isn't the first time. You fall down, you get up, you fal ldonw, you get up.... kinda repetetive. Why don't you stop the cycle this time? You see how it works. Make it end. Get up and do it differently.
Quote: am having such a difficult time remembering what I found fun b4 I met my wife. I know that she fell in love with me for a REASON (or 2 or 3).
Why don't you ask her? Tell her you are doing some soul searching and as part of your journey into finding yourself, you'd appreciate it if she could tell you the qualities she saw in you that caused her to fall in love with you. Then just listen. Thank her. Don't whine and ask her why she can't see them now. Be grateful she told you.
Quote: Amy said: I really should have elaborated when I used the term "revenge". I don't necessarily think she is consciously thinking "I'm going to make him pay". I think it is more like she doesn't want to deal with the pain so she is distancing herself from it by going hog-ass wild. Her exploits to date seem to all be rather shallow and that only adds to the suspicion that she is out of touch with her feelings (the drinking helps tremendously - is she still doing that?). What is her sitch like with OM? Her friends all seem to be folks that will accept her living this way...basically like a teenager.
Of course I totally agree. This is exactly what my W did. She told me later that when she looks back at the person she was during all that, she can't belive who she turned into. She manufactured a fantasy world.
Quote: She knows our co-workers are going to make a beeline to tell me her antics. Oh, well, I always have the option of quitting and getting out of the direct line of fire, but I feel that would be letting her control me more than she already has in the past. I need to stand up and be a man, husband to her or not.
Yes, you do. Being a man means not getting sucked in to the noise. When she complains, you listen. When she tells people stuff she know you will hear - you don't react. You are above this. You are ready to live on a higher plane.
Quote: One more note, all. My W sent me an e-mail that said she is really angry b/c she doesn't get more help from me with the kids. I am the GREATEST father. Even in this mess, even while being pushed away I have been there for my children. I have reached out to help my W. It's never enough or my effort was "almost" what she needed. I have NEVER "measured up" and she makes sure I am aware of her displeasure/disappointment.
Read 'The Way of the Superior Man' by David Deida. "Her complaints are content-free". She's telling you she thinks you are a great father and when she puts you down it's because she really DOES want you to be there but she can't have you so she has to devalue your presence. Otherwise she'll feel like she might be wrong in leaving the relationship. She has to justify leaving you.
Quote: What I don't do is speak ill of my wife for playing the hand that I dealt her as she sees fit. It's her life; her right.
No, it isn't. She made a wedding vow AND she made children. When she did that she willingly gave up some of those 'rights'. Just like YOU did. She is just as wrong as you were.
Quote: I will never forget that I am the one who dealt her this crappy hand. Sometimes I will think selfish, pitiful thoughts and I tell myself to stop it. I love that woman. Always will. She deserved better from me. She deserved for me to come to HER to discuss my feelings of lack in our marriage. She deserved for me to be a man, not a coward. I hope that I will get that chance in the future to be the man she wanted when we married.
NOW THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF MY POST. So, if you fell asleep during the previous ramblings, READ this part. I mean it.
YOU did not DEAL her this 'crappy hand'. She signed up for this journey with you just like you did with her. She REACTED to your actions the way she chose to. Period.
WIll YOU 'get the chance' to be the man she married. ONLY if you choose to. Let me say it again. ONLY IF YOU CHOOSE TO.
WHATEVER happens will happen because YOU manifested it. NOT because of what she does. When YOU make changes in your perceptions and actions, SHE will have no choice but to also change. YOU will manifest the outcome. If you stay stuck in the role of martyr and whipping boy that's what you'll be.
But, if you become the rock, the solid, unshakable man that you are meant to be then she will notice. She has to. And she will wonder why ot was she ran from you.
It's all up to you. Will you do it? Are you ready?
WOW. I am blown away and honored that you would take so much of your time to help me. All of the glowing comments about your are right on! It's 5 minutes to midnight and I need to drive home to get some sleep. I will respond to your beautiful post tomorrow when I have a sandwich and a drink. Thank you Frank! You pegged me quickly, as GH said you would, helped me immeasureably, as Amy said you would, and touched my heart. Thank you.
Something has been bothering me again. I have said this before to you and I'll say it again on the heels of Franks masterful post to you.
You SEEM sometimes to revel in this process. I recognized it because I have it in me too. What I fear is that you are SO wrapped up in the process that progress is not being made. Each new post to you seems like a revelation when by now, the revelations should probably be combing from YOU more than us.
I think a lot of what Frank is talking about is just that. The idea that it's time to stop celebrating the PROCESS of self-discovery and start actually DOING it.
I can't really put my finger on it, and someday I will, but again, there is something about your general positive nature in all this that is both great from a PMA perspective and disturbing as well. Like I said, it's like you "get off" somehow on all this.
I am not saying you enjoy the pain on any conscious level...or do you? I think that's another aspect of Franks analysis; you DO get off on the pain because you think you deserve it.
I wish I could find a way to articulate what I feel here. I cannot. It's just a gut feeling and I think in the end, it's probably been best expressed by Frank.
One thing I would recommend to you is that you find the time to read some or if possible ALL of Frank's threads around the boards. While I don't 100% agree with everything he did because it frankly (no pun intended) does not really suit my personality, I DO identify with HOW he did things. In general, think it's a blueprint for how to not only go about DBing and incorporating other philosophies into it but also how to share your experiences and help others in the process.
I guess, now that I have been thinking hard about you, I THINK I can better express what I was trying to earlier in the post. Your thread/process is basically to Journal, get responses, act amazed/surpriesed/blessed/happy/etc at the response, then post a lot of "I KNOW I have to do xxx and yyy" mixed with a lot of (please, don't take offense at this) "God will move me" stuff...rinse and repeat. It's not bad, but after awhile, you should have been moved a bit more that you have been if you know what I mean.
What's missing for me is the actual DOING part. I know you do things, but somehow most of that is lost in the translation. You TALK a lot about certain things, but there is a lot of repeating going on. There is a lot of "us" saying the same things, you responding the same way, only to do it all over again a week later.
Look HH, you are no different than the rest of us. You struggle with WHAT to do and HOW to do it. We ALL do. Frank has just given you a wonderful gift, some of all of which may apply to you TODAY and give you cause for action. Read, respond and then do.
I KNOW you have it in you to comprehend these things and then do something about them. Of that I am sure. The rest is up to you.
Go where Frank leads you.
You can trust him.
He's been there.
But make no mistake, it's not like you are waiting to be picked up and taken to have a fun day out at the carnival.
It's more like going through a terrifying house of mirrors where you will meet yourself and your past around every freakin corner and you can not escape.
Once you go down as low as you can get...and YES, you have MUCH further downward still to travel...THEN you can start climbing OUT of the pit and THAT is when your eyes will begin to see, with awe and wonder, just why the valley was so necessary to your life....BUT UNTIL THEN, IT'S GOING TO SUCK like you just can not fathom.
I joke a lot.
Yes, even about THIS hell, but I am telling you, this is not a carnival ride and there ain't gonna be a whole lot of laughing and giggling in the next few weeks.
Now FYI: Frank won't talk to you about Jesus.
No worries though.
I'll pop in whenever necessary to remind you to keep your eyes on the Light.
You just fight your way through the muck and the mire with Frank to get there, okay?
