Stevie (and Mama), my C said just that, to just accept that things are already "alright" and that I don't need to fix them. She said that I was too focused on what I didn't have and needed to be focused on the positive changes I have made, and that have happened in my sitch.
The problem is that I know what our life was like before the affair, and we're right back there again. I can continue like this for as long as I need to but the problem is that I don't know how long that is. Is she waiting for me to DO something as OT often suggested to me? Is this just a test, for her to see if I am really this passionless man, willing to accept a sex-less marriage? If so, I am failing that test right now.
OR, is this just her taking the time and space she said she needed the last time we talked about all this about a month ago? Do I take her word that she wants all the same things I do but needs time to get back there, and time means time without constant pressure from me?
I agree Mama, we DO look desperate right now...and we are. I want to change that dynamic but I think in my specific sitch, most of that "desperation" is perception. I do not act desperate anymore but there have been SO many years of that behavior that I think it may take awhile for her to "get it" that I am not that guy anymore. I hope that's the case anyway.
Muddle, I responded to Mama and Stevie while you were posting but your post did a GREAT job of summing it up.
Quote: I think the lack of intimacy is not a problem anyway, it's your expectation and desire for it that's the problem, because you haven't been able to negotiate it into reality. So you have two options - 1. negotiate, beg, plead, manipulate the desired outcome or 2. genuinely enjoy what you have in the R now and build on these strengths until IT happens. The more happy you can be in the R, the more likely both parties will want to share that happiness in a physical way.
Amazingly simple way to look at it. I will do this best I can. Thank you all so much!!!!!!
Muddle, Stevie and GH: If you don't mind, I am also going to take this advice. There are so many positives in our sitch's right now. We should be proud of how far we have come. Yes, the one negative is a BIG one; lack of physical R, but things could definitely be much worse. We are healthy, our kids are healthy, we are still together, we have a roof over our heads, food on the table, the list goes on and on. We will be ok!
Ok, this is probably a bad thing to say because it's akin to accepting the "bad" marriage again, but you know what, I bet more than a few of us, myself defiantly included in this, had relatively little or no intimacy long before the affair and just considered it part of normal married life. So what's the difference now?
I AM NOT SAYING we accept it, merely that we stop thinking of it as meaning there is NO MARRIAGE. Of course there is still a marriage without intimacy and sex, just not the kind we want. We are now AWARE of our desire for more than just a co-parenting situation with our best friend but I can honestly say that for years, I accepted that as the "norm" and did little to change it.
I can take a few more...well, whatever, to give that time to change, all the while working on my personal baggage and enjoying what my marriage DOES have, which is a great friendship (yea, I know Sarnach people, that is not necessarily all good), much more open communication, great kids, a great home and a lot of other things that we should be happy with.
I think I need to step back and realize that before all this I didn't think the lack of intimacy was anything even to work on, let alone worry about. Damn, how stupid was I?
I need to tap back into that "inner stupidity" again and realize that I CAN endure more of this if the goal is to make sure it never comes back again once we finally banish it to marriage neverland.
Just a bit of general journaling...
I wanted to post this because I thought it was interesting. Reading Passionate Marriage, I came across an example of a couple that seem to have a similar dynamic to my W & me. In this example, the wife had what looked to be low sex-drive and the H would always pursue her. It got to the point that his pursuit just drove her further into not wanting it from him. When his pursuit didn't work, he'd resort to belittling her and insulting her into having sex with him. In the end, she never really WANTED to have sex as much as had been guilted or pressured into it and it eventually killed her desire.
This was presented in a way that sounded awfully familiar. I often used (and sadly still do) humor or sarcasm when my W does not respond to my advances. I'm sure I make her feel bad and overall, it's not a pleasant experience for her. Instead of accepting her the way she is, I think i paint a picture of her that something's wrong because she doesn't want sex and especially with me. I have never given her a chance to WANT ME because I have spent so much time "pecking" at her as Sarnach describes in that example. Morning, noon and night I would peck, jabbing here and there until she relented, giving in to my desires, but I doubt really ever having much of her OWN desire fulfilled.
Once again, if I only knew then...
Anyway, I DO know now and I am working very hard to change that part of me, all the while, starting to turn my focus towards the many "good" parts of my marriage and away from it's problems, real or otherwise.
Quote: I think I need to step back and realize that before all this I didn't think the lack of intimacy was anything even to work on, let alone worry about. Damn, how stupid was I?
Before the A I was perfectly happy to go weeks, or months without intimacy. I had all kinds of reasons to not want it. Probably something I should really investigate like my not being good enough, insecurities from childhood, etc.
In any case it didn't bother me at all. It took my H stepping out of our marriage to wake me up. Boy did I take him for granted. I don't condone what he did and wish he would have just sat me down and told me how rejected and unfulfilled he felt, but I can't go back and change the past. Now is my chance (and yours) to become the person we were meant to be. It is going to take a lot of work (it took us years to get this way). If there is no pain, there will be no gain. Little by little our spouse's will become attracted to the new us and want us again. And when they do, look out cause there will be fireworks!!!
Of course there was little or no intimacy before the A happened and that is why it is all the more important now when you guys/gals are together. You see it was a sign of a problem before and you want to know that you have fixed that problem. Since there is still little intimacy you think that there is still a problem. Something you have to fix in order to move froward.
Now, lets look at it from a different perspective. When you first met your W, did she automatically become intimate with you on your first date? Chance are she was interested, but didn't show a lot of intimacy because she still didn't know who you were or what you were about. You did things back then to earn her intimacy. What were those things? They worked back then didn't they? Think maybe it's time to give those old tools a try and see if they still work?
The worst thing that could happen is that you are exactly where you are at now, right?
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius
Quote: You did things back then to earn her intimacy. What were those things? They worked back then didn't they? Think maybe it's time to give those old tools a try and see if they still work?
Stevie, that's where my personal demons come into the picture. No, I never really did ANYTHING other than be me, which in those days was someone so deathly afraid of intimacy that I seemed ULTRA unattainable to women. Most women had the same reaction to me. MOST of the women in my past initiated a physical relationship with me but it was me who sustained it. I have always needed validation from a woman before I felt confident to pursue any kind of intimacy. With my W, she initiated ALL the intimacy in the beginning and it worked fine. Then as we progressed, she started to pull back and I was the sole initiator but somewhere along the way, our intimacy was relegated to the bedroom and all kissing, etc died.
My point is that I don't really have a "old" way to go back to. There really was never a set of tools I used to "get her" back in the day. I simply existed and that seemed to work. Sure it HAD to be more than that, but thinking back, it seems like that was about it. I was proof that people want what they can't have.
So I could go back to being aloof and distant, making her pursue me, but that stopped working long ago. Trust me, I tried that and she got pissed.
Here is what she's either told me, or I've learned through recent experience:
1) She told me as recently as 3 weeks ago that she needs more time to get back to "us" and there really wasn't anything I should be doing to help that process along. 2) She wants me to initiate 100% of the time when we DO ML. She feels that it's the mans job to do that. 3) She wants more general intimacy when she's ready for that again. 4) When I have made attempts to be more intimate, she pulls away most of the time and when she doesn't, she makes it clear that there is a line not to cross.
Like you said, I am seeing this as a problem but maybe it's one that will help fix itself by way of my growth.
I like what you said at the end...
Quote: The worst thing that could happen is that you are exactly where you are at now, right?
I say this kind of thing to people all the time...it's nice to have it said to me. You're right. Thank you.
Hey gang, here's a rephrasing of one of my issues.
I want to try to stop the pursuer/distancer dynamic in my sitch. I KNEW, even before reading PM last night, that my pursuit of my W was a hinderance to our intimacy. The problem is that when I distance from her, and I mean even sitting on the other end of the couch, she almost immediately, directly either requests my closeness or calls me on why I am distant. WTH? She won't "let" me be distant without it being an issue, without me having to just come out and say "honey, I don't really feel like being close to you right now" but when I try to take things further than just "close" she shuts me down. I WANT to make her pursue ME but it doesn't last more than a few minutes before she is asking me to "pursue" her.
I am not really asking a question, more just venting. I know this "closeness" is good (I think) and I should just roll with it, but...well...I want more than that.
OK, you have something to work with even if my suggestion doesn't fit your sitch. She said she needed to get back to "us". That confuses me. What does getting back to "us" mean? I not looking for your interpretation either. Has she told you what that means?
What I'm saying, and I'm sure you realize, is that she feels like something is missing. What that could be is anybodys guess. Maybe she doesn't even know what that is herself, maybe it is just a feeling. It does give you a starting point though, something to think about.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius
