Lately (like, since mid-May) I haven't bothered to try initiating anything with my W. My reasons: 1. She's made it clear with her actions, and somewhat clear with her words, that she's not interested in sex, so why would I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me? 2. If I wanted to feel bad about myself, I can pretty much do that just by sitting around and thinking bad thoughts about myself. I certainly don't need to go through the laborious actions of making myself vulnerable, reaching out to touch my W, actually touching her (in a non-erogenous zone) and, if in the unlikely event that my hand doesn't get pushed away in less than 5 seconds, moving toward an erogenous zone, only to get the smackdown. That's just too much effort to go through in order to have the following feelings: a)why did I marry this asexual person?, b)why did I adopt a child with this asexual person?, and c) why do I even bother trying to touch this asexual person? 3. If I'm in the mood for sex, it's a lot more enjoyable to be by myself, imagining the act with a woman who actually responds positively, than to tiptoe across the minefield of our sexlife.
Aside from occasional hugs and goodbye kisses, I have truly embraced my W's stated preference for "no pressure." Truth be told, I feel very little sexual attraction toward her anymore, so it's relatively easy to restrain myself from the kind of behavior she would see as "pressure."
As you can imagine, this type of relationship with her doesn't stimulate my muse. In other words, my communication with her ranges from the mundane to the bare-essential. I share my parental observations of our DD5 with her, my plans for dinner, my yardwork to-dos, etc. Occasionally, she might engage me in some topical news discussion, or some talk about her step-father's health, but it's pretty basic.
Imagine my surprise, then, when she woke me up upon her entry to the bedroom with a comment like, "you know, if you want to have sex with me, you are going to have to initiate." I don't recall the exact words, but that was because I had been asleep. (I've decided that going to bed by 10pm is more important to me than keeping her company while she watches television until 11.) I didn't respond.
The next day (last Sunday) she again mentioned that I was the one who needed to initiate, and that I should approach her "with confidence." Instead, I kept myself busy all day in the yard, cooked dinner for us, and then went to bed early.
Monday morning she said she wanted to talk, asked me why I was not approaching her physically, and I told her, well, basically number one, above, that I had the distinct impression that she did not want to have sex, and so, why would I have sex with her? I recounted the conversation we had in March, after the episode of "Coupling" where she focused on my PE problems, and the encounter during our vacation where I tried to help her "O" manually, and she told me that she could do that herself, that she didn't need me for that, and that she was basically only having sex for me.
She denied the essences of those conversations, said I was totally mistaken, that she enjoyed sex, that she was turned-on by me, that (Hairdog's eyes and ears glazed over here, as often happens when confronted with a make-believe world that has absolutely no connection with reality).
But, ignoring the warning bells, I decided that, last night, I'd do a recon of the no-fly zone. Try to touch . . . hand on calf for nearly 7 seconds before she repositioned herself. Hmmm....maybe that was a fluke....hand on shoulder....oops, only five seconds before repositioning. How about a spontaneous kiss? Hmmmm, reminds me of the time I practiced kissing my mom's styrofoam wig-stand.
Nope, no change here. The words do not have any relationship to her actions. Back to the relative safety of the no-pressure zone. There, at least, we don't have the subject of my animal urges to argue about.
And the whole "approach with confidence" comment just makes me laugh (in a bitter way). I am confident in every area of my life which is relatively untouched by her: my work, my inner creativity, my sense of humor with my friends...it is only in my dealings with her that my confidence is gone. It's not just in the sexual arena. From deciding whether we should keep or cancel the newspaper ($6 a month) to how to clean the floor, to what I want to do on Father's Day, almost every decision, communication, action, in her presence, lacks confidence. No wonder she doesn't want to have sex with me (contrary to her words), I can hardly look at myself in the mirror when I'm at home.
I am angry at myself for letting this happen, for being at the point now where I care so little about my marriage that I see her as little more than a co-parent, a co-habitor of space, and a co-spender of income. Yet, most of the time, the anger stays hidden. Every once in a while it bursts forth, usually as a result from something that could be characterized as a minor irritation. And yes, I'm angry with her, too. Her incessant criticism has helped erode my confidence.
Understand, I'm basically just venting here; sharing the story of Ms.Hdog practically begging me to initiate, responding coldly when I do, same ol' same ol'. I don't need the pep talk from blackfoot or stigmata about being the alpha male. I've heard it before and it doesn't work for me.
I'm not preparing to exit the M. I'm just enduring. I'm being the best father I can be to my kids, being a helpful man about the house, and, oh yeah: refusing to give my W the power over me that comes from some sort of sick satisfaction she must get from rejecting me.
Funny, but I look at HappyGiant's letter to his wife and instead of getting tangled up in the analysis of his motivations or the legality of it all, all I can think is, "wow...I bet it took a lot of energy to come up with that plan and put it down on paper. Meanwhile, I don't even care enough to threaten to not do the dishes after I've cooked dinner. Too much wasted effort...too much conflict."
I have an appointment with my IC at 2:30 today. I'll probably talk to him about some of this.
Man, how I can understand everything your going through. My wife shares so many traits with yours. One things I see that is very common is that there LD women are trying to solve the situation by becoming sexual for US! They just don't get it! To solve the situation, they must become sexual for themselves first. This is not about meeting the man's need for sex, it's all about creating a need for sex within themselves.
She is literally counting on YOU to provide HER desire, and man if you screw up in your approach, you are the one that suffers the consequences. She literally does not understand what is going on in her own head, but yet she expects you to show confidence in your interactions with her, assuming that YOU do know what is going on in her head! She will not take responsibility for turning herself on, she is making you do it, and us guys are the LEAST likely people to understand the process she must go through.
Just a question but it seems to me that your W was giving you the green flag for sex, but in her own way trying to tell you how to approach her in a manner that arouses her....why didn't you try it?
Instead it appears to me that you did the same thing you usually do...test the waters timidly (and she repositioned and she always does with that)....which isn't the "confident" approach she mentioned.
I don't feel that you have to be super alpha male to approach her in a confident manner. What (out of curiosity) do you think the outcome might have been if you just hauled her over your shoulder (without a word)...or grabbed her by the hand took her to your bedroom and plopped her butt down on the bed and started undressing? No words necessary, and the intent is pretty clear....she wouldn't mistake it.
Are you both still only doing the individual counselling or is there some marriage counselling going on? Why is the marriage counselling not focusing on YOUR needs?
Quote: What (out of curiosity) do you think the outcome might have been if you just hauled her over your shoulder
Answer: hernia. See, I told you I still had my sense of humor with my friends.
I don't know, GEL. That is so NOT my approach. But maybe I'll try it some day. I guess that my point is, the "green flag" with her is (to mix metaphors between NASCAR and Looney Tunes) more like the matador's red cape that is hiding the anvil. Come on, come on, you know you want it, BAM! Or, with apologies to the estate of Charles Shulz, it's like when Lucy holds the football and promises to Charlie Brown that she won't pull it away at the last minute. We all know what happens. I'm at the point where my personal integrity says "no."
And CeMar, we haven't been back to MC yet, although it's something we are still planning to do. Thanks for the empathy. Your point about her not taking the responsibility to bring her own desire to the table continues to confuse me. It truly is as if she is asexual.
I so completely do understand that it's not the approach you are comfortable with (and yes I get the snoopy analogy as well). I guess though that I can see this as speaking her LL in a way....and she's telling you exactly what to say. No, the words don't comfortably flow from you...but if it's what works for her and it can possibly lead to what you are hoping for...why not try it?
If she pulls the metaphorical football out from under you then you call her on it. It would be a case of "I did EXACTLY what you asked of me and you still don't respond favorably. With this response you still expect me to always initiate? I don't think so...I'm not a glutton for punishment."
I'm sure you'll haveto get to the point though where you are willing to try it....but it would be a 180 for you....sexually speaking.
I don't feel that you have to be super alpha male to approach her in a confident manner. What (out of curiosity) do you think the outcome might have been if you just hauled her over your shoulder (without a word)...or grabbed her by the hand took her to your bedroom and plopped her butt down on the bed and started undressing? No words necessary, and the intent is pretty clear....she wouldn't mistake it.
While I agree with your point in theory, I don't think the action is necessarily the solution.
Hairdog, Your tone for this post is like many of your posts, one of resentment and surrender to a degree. I don't blame you for not wanting to hear about all the alpha male talk, because you cannot wrap your brain around it mentally. My H is quite similar in that sense. Taking "alpha" action without the "alpha" mentality behind it is almost certain to fail. You have no confidence in your R with your W. I doubt things will change until you work more on you. said I was totally mistaken, that she enjoyed sex, that she was turned-on by me, that (Hairdog's eyes and ears glazed over here, as often happens when confronted with a make-believe world that has absolutely no connection with reality).
Her admission sounds HUGE to me, at least she is trying to have a positive attitude toward your SL. But right away you dismiss it. I'm not saying I blame you here given your history together, but she made a move and you rejected it. I'm not surprised she did not accept your advances later. Nope, no change here. The words do not have any relationship to her actions. But don't you see, neither do yours. You clearly have a lot of anger and resentment towards her. So your actions are not genuine in that sense. She knows full well the M is on shaky ground, wouldn't ya say? So how "loving" are these intimate actions towards her? And vice versa of course. Maybe the two of you need to get down to basics here and reconnect some of the EC, not sexually. Seems like that could only benefit the M. And I'll give you a small 2x4 to the head too, I think Corri might be thinking the same thing considering her mention of this on another thread, but sometimes you need to sh!t or get off the pot. Venting I can relate to, but being endlessly miserable about your situation because you can't even get up the balls to not do the dishes, is just your own fault in the end. That piece of the puzzle is not about Mrs.HD at all but all about You.
I think you are just a little beaten down right now and need a minute to regroup and regain your equilibrium. Then, maybe you can try the "confident" approach and if you get shot down handle it with humor, grace and even some raw honesty. "Mrs. Hdog you told me to initiate if I wanted to have sex. I did. We didn't. I don't believe that you had any intention of having sex with me no matter how I approach it and I am rapidly ceasing to care anymore." Not too nice I know but I don't think that you are getting a fair shake here and I can imagine how difficult it must be to muster the "confident" approach under the circumstances. I don't suggest you verbally beat up the Mrs. but a little truth may be in order.
Quote: Imagine my surprise, then, when she woke me up upon her entry to the bedroom with a comment like, "you know, if you want to have sex with me, you are going to have to initiate." I don't recall the exact words, but that was because I had been asleep. (I've decided that going to bed by 10pm is more important to me than keeping her company while she watches television until 11.) I didn't respond.
The next day (last Sunday) she again mentioned that I was the one who needed to initiate, and that I should approach her "with confidence." Instead, I kept myself busy all day in the yard, cooked dinner for us, and then went to bed early.
Monday morning she said she wanted to talk, asked me why I was not approaching her physically, and I told her, well, basically number one, above, that I had the distinct impression that she did not want to have sex, and so, why would I have sex with her? I recounted the conversation we had in March, after the episode of "Coupling" where she focused on my PE problems, and the encounter during our vacation where I tried to help her "O" manually, and she told me that she could do that herself, that she didn't need me for that, and that she was basically only having sex for me.
She denied the essences of those conversations, said I was totally mistaken, that she enjoyed sex, that she was turned-on by me, that (Hairdog's eyes and ears glazed over here, as often happens when confronted with a make-believe world that has absolutely no connection with reality).
Did you ask what her interpretation or essences of those conversations were? I think that would be a good thing to know, "Just what were you trying to tell me?"
You know, it might be a time to consider brute honesty.
"Honey, I have found that I am losing sexual interest in our marriage. I have also lost interest in feeling that I have to jump through an ever-moving relational hoop that has unpredictable, ever-diminishing returns. I guess I'm at the point, that if you're interested in having a sex life with me, you'll have to make the first physical move. You don't have to respond right now, but let me know how you would like to proceed."
It would appear to me that she's beginning to pick up on the "Hair Dog has left the building" aspect of your recent attitude.
I think it's time for Lucy to kick the ball while Charley Brown holds it.
Hairy, I gotta say, that I'm with GEL on this. Your current approach obviously isn't working, so try something else. I think MrsHD was attempting to give you the operating manual (although admittedly very very vague, but that doesn't matter because you refuse to read it because it isn't how you thought it was supposed to work), and IMHO a very strong indication that she's missing your attention. You previously mentioned that she got turned on watching some movie with Marines that just took what they wanted. From the sidelines here in the nosebleed section of the peanut gallery, it looks a lot like she wants to be aggressively taken by someone who isn't going to take no for an answer and is not at all tentative about his approach. Have you asked her at all about her sexual fantasies? (yeah, yeah, I know, if she's not at a level of intimate communication with you, she'd probably say something like she doesn't have any, but that's a lie).
Time to break out your Mom's styrofoam mannequin and practice your throwdown and ravage routine. Of course, you'll first have to hollow out the mannequin and fill it with a ton of fishing sinkers so that you condition yourself to avoid a hernia Oh, and tell her to lay off the frickin bon-bons .
Go take what you want, my friend. If she balks, then you are still being too much a pansy about it. Darnit, if she says no, then b'gosh that's what bed posts and rope are for
Oh, and tell her to lay off the frickin bon-bons 
.