I have thought about what you said. In my own, hopefully gentle way, I've told him enough is enough. Last night I mentioned that he needs to start focusing on the good things in his life and how to make those things even better (solution-oriented), and maybe he'll be able to stop thinking so negatively about himself. He needs some small successes, I think, in order to start rebuilding his self-esteem. I would think that realizing I care enough about him to work through this mess instead of kicking him out on his butt would be a small success, but somehow I think that just makes him feel guiltier, i.e. "How could I have done this to someone who cares so much about me?" Oh, well, you're right -- his problem. I'm doing all I can. I also told him (with a smile ) that he needs to lighten-up; he's bringing me down. He says he gonna try.
We go to MC this afternoon. I'm thinking about calling ahead and asking C to concentrate mostly on H's self-forgiveness today, and also to ask if how H feels about himself is affecting how he feels about me. After all, you can't love somebody else if you don't love yourself, right? Lily,
I think you're onto something, also, about the integrity thing. What other people think about H is very important to him. He has always had in his mind that he was a certain kind of person: one who was trustworthy, honest, dependable, kind, and of good moral character. When he looks in the mirror now he does not see that person. He says he doesn't even recognize the person looking back at him.
He feels he has no credibility whatsoever. How can he teach our son's about moral character; about how important it is to be trustworthy and honest; how important it is to have integrity? He feels like a fraud. He feels like a failure to all of us, and most certainly to himself. This is a very difficult hurdle to overcome. I wonder if it can ever really be overcome.
With regards to Sage's "feeling alive" again, my take on it is he was feeling all those wonderful feelings that we've all had (albeit a very long time ago ) of infatuation. I wrote about it before I think in my first thread. About haven't we all longed for that rush we get from someone new who finds us attractive, sees all our wonderful qualities. That rush we get from the first kiss, etc. I think you know what I'm talking about. We've all been there. I think we've all longed for those feelings at one time or another. It can be intoxicating. And then you add into the mix the excitement of an A being "wrong," only having a few stolen moments to spend together, etc., and whala you "feel alive" again.
Maybe if your H's A had been allowed to run its course your H would have realized all this in the end. I think because the OW ended it abruptly he did not have time for the infatuation and the fantasy to wear off.
And for your H, too, I think that once he's able to forgive himself and start to restore his integrity he will start to like himself again, start to love himself again, and that will open his heart to his love for you again. Like I said above, how can you love someone else when you don't love yourself (or even like yourself)?
CHH (can't remember it that's right and didn't want to take the time to review the post!):
Thank you for posting to my thread. Yes, believe me, I've got all the answers I need to my H's A -- much more than was probably good for me. He was very honest and forthcoming when answering my questions. Too bad I didn't know when to stop asking!!
Andy is so right Matilda!! Your H has the problem..not you!! You forgave him..that's all you can do. Now he has to forgive himself!! You cannot do that for him. You need to tell him "I LOVE YOU...I FORGAVE YOU...If I WAS GOING TO LEAVE YOU I WOULD HAVE DONE IT LONG AGO...NOW DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!" I do understand what you were saying in you post about his love for you if he is reminded everytime he looks at you of what he did to you. But Matilda,honey YOU DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!!! HE SCREWED UP!!!!!! NOT YOU!!!!!! I heard someone say one time that when you forgive someone you actually make them feel worse than they would had you told them to leave because by forgiving you are being the better person. I don't think I am better than my H because he messed up and I forgave him but I do think that if your H can't forgive himself it is because he thought you'd kick him out and when you didn't you proved how much you love him and he can't quite understand that. He is going to have to deal with this and come to grips with the fact that he is HUMAN...he did mess up bad but what he did is a forgivable sin. Tell him that God forgives him and you forgive him so why if the 2 most important people in the world can forgive him his sin,why is he finding it so hard to forgive himself? Maybe that'll make him think!! Sometimes I wish I had the ability to put things away,forget them and never ever think of them again. But God gave us brains and for some reason he gave us memories that work even when we don't want them to. My H seems to have the knack for putting things away and not talking about them and making them go away (unless of course I bring them up !!). I think that he was able to forgive himself because I forgave him so quickly. He honestly wasn't sure of me and my reaction. He knew that I had always said that cheating was the one thing I could never forgive and then when I did and I showed him that I could deal with the A and I was willing to try and put it behind us,he was better able to do the same. Am I making any sense here? Anyway,Matilda,you just continue to love him and stop letting his insecurities mess with your head!! You stay focused on you and your love for him and remember that he does love you and he needs you!! He'll get it sooner or later when you are still there and when you continue to love him!! pfroglady
I'm running out the door, but saw your post and just wanted to acknowlege it. I'll post more later this afternoon (or sometime this weekend) about MC today.
You are such a bright light for me. I really need your encouragement, thanks.
I do know it's H's problem, but because I do love him, his problems are my problems, aren't they? When he hurts, I hurt. I know he hurts because of my hurt (which he caused!!!). His successes are my successes. And so on down the line. I know there isn't anything more I can do than I'm already doing for him -- really, I do know that.
Right now it helps me to concentrate on what he's feeling and going through in order to keep my mind off of my own negative feelings. Sometimes the thoughts that bounce around in my head set my mind spinning. One moment I'm thinking: "What an a-hole. How dare he do that to me." Then it's "I can't believe how someone who professes to love me could have hurt me to terribly." Then, "Wow, he's really messed up and in pain himself. What can I do to help HIM." Yikes!!
Yes, today I think I worry about just myself (until MC appt ) What makes Mattie happy? Funny thing is, I don't really know anymore. I've lost myself in all this. I can't for the life of me remember what I used to think about before the bomb.
Well, this was longer than I'd planned. Gotta get out of here and get stuff done.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: I also told him (with a smile ) that he needs to lighten-up; he's bringing me down. He says he gonna try.
I hope he takes your advice, Mattie. Isn’t this what it’s all about? All of those people out there that are forcing themselves to give their S space… What they’re really after is to stop suffocating their SO (and their R). You’re in the rather odd position of having an H who is suffocating your R. It’s the “aura” around your R that has to change. You’ve picked things up from your side and now your H has to take hold of his end.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: After all, you can't love somebody else if you don't love yourself, right?
Dunno. I think that this is an oversimplification. I think he loves you very much, Matilda. But how can he express his love when he’s obsessing over what an evil person he is. I like your idea of concentrating on his self-forgiveness, though. He’s said he’ll do anything to make things up to you. He thinks that self-flagellation is what he has to do, but he has to learn that the biggest thing he has to do is to forgive himself.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: I think you're onto something, also, about the integrity thing. What other people think about H is very important to him. He has always had in his mind that he was a certain kind of person: one who was trustworthy, honest, dependable, kind, and of good moral character. When he looks in the mirror now he does not see that person. He says he doesn't even recognize the person looking back at him.
Yeah. Lily's definitely onto something. She keeps calling me insightful, but Lily (and you too, Matilda) sure have your fair share!
What your H (and Sage too) don’t seem to realize is that, yes, they lost their integrity. No doubt about it. BUT… It doesn’t have to stay lost. Once they start behaving with integrity, its back.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: And for your H, too, I think that once he's able to forgive himself and start to restore his integrity he will start to like himself again, start to love himself again, and that will open his heart to his love for you again. Like I said above, how can you love someone else when you don't love yourself (or even like yourself)?
OK. I said that I thought that this was an oversimplification. But, having said that, I do agree that the whole guilt thing can close your mind – if not your heart. If your mind is clouded with all of these guilt feelings, you don’t even have time to think in loving terms.
Something else to remember: It's not how you make her feel about you, but rather how you make her feel about herself that is truly important.
G
A double AMEN on that one!
This seems to help in most cases of depression, MLC, and general spousal neglect. (oh, wait, none of us have been guilty of that, have we?!)
Sure, a person has to feel good about themselves from within. If you fall back entirely on this fact, we become powerless, and are guilty of playing the blame game. There's a helluva lot of LITTLE things that can be done on a daily basis to help make a person feel better about themselves. And about being around you.
It was a "more of what works" for me!
Thanks, Greg!
Yeah. Feeling good about yourself (from within), helps, but it's not the whole story. As much as we'd like to think that we're independent enough to be happy from within, we're social creatures, and we need validation, etc.
And, I don't think it's putting the cart before the horse to work on both at the same time.
Of course, this is more a message for your husbands, but there it is.
That's it! My H's mind is SO clouded with guilt and thinking what an evil person he is that the love that he feels can not naturally flow though to be expressed on the outside! It's not that it's not there or something is "wrong," it's just stuck in there. Like a river that flows naturally downstream winding through trees and curving gracefully around bends in the landscape -- until it hits the dam. Then it starts backing up, not able to get through, except for small bits at a time when the flood gates are opened momentarily.
Well, maybe it's time to explore how to keep that flood gate open a little longer in order to keep the river from backing up too much and causing damage further upstream.
That quote above about "how we make them feel about themselves" was pretty much what I was trying to say above. If he feels bad about himself just being around me, how can I change that? I know it's not because of me. I know it all stems from his guilt over what HE's done. But, see, that doesn't change the fact that just looking at me seems to throw it up in his face of what he's done. He thinks that everytime I'm a little down it's because of him. That's simply not true, and I've told him that many times. After all, my entire world does NOT revolve around him (although lately sometimes it sure seems like it does ). Be that as it may, in his mind all my troubles are caused by him.
Well, we see what happens later this afternoon. I called the MC and asked him to concentrate on my H's forgiving himself this afternoon and to try and see if there isn't something "solution-oriented" we can do to help the process. I feel I have a pretty good handle on my feelings regarding the A right now. Things have been fairly smooth for me for a month now. Maybe that's what is going to do my H the most good, seeing that more and more time is going by without me "going to the bad place" about the A. Two weeks ago at MC he said that each day that goes by without an upheaval regarding the A just means another day closer until the next time it happens. So, basically, I guess he's just waiting for the next shoe to drop -- on a day by day basis. That's no way to live!!
No shoes have been dropped in a long time now. Maybe he can start to relax. And then maybe I can start to relax.
Hope everyone's weekend is good. You are all in my prayers always.
Had a little time to start catching up on everone's situation. Forgive me for saying this, but I have felt all along that you are having to personally work too hard on your H's own recovery. I understand the guilt he feels, and the effects it has had on him. But it seems as if its time for him to start looking forward, and take that next step. He has a very caring and loving wife, he should be thankful for that alone.
quote:You need to tell him "I LOVE YOU...I FORGAVE YOU...If I WAS GOING TO LEAVE YOU I WOULD HAVE DONE IT LONG AGO...NOW DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!"
I have to agree with pfroglady on this one. Maybe you need to be this blunt with him. It seems as if he needs a slap in the face so to speak. Not literally, but you know what Im saying. If you're able to keep your bad feelings to yourself and not make him feel any worse than he already does, then there's no need in him hindering the recovery process any longer. If my W was as self-loathing as your H I dont know that I could take it. She is the strong one here, not me. She has made her own personal recovery from all this. I guess having the luxury of a 6 year time frame does help, that along with her faith in God. I hope all goes well at the C's and maybe he/she can get your husband back on the right track.
And that ANS guy, boy does he have a way with words. Andy you truly are insightful, whether you know it or not. Keep spewing out the knowledge, for it's a benefit to us all.
As always, my thoughts and prayers are with you,
Montana
Edit: BTW.....maybe you should give your H some of your own advice. As in the title of this thread. "I'll think about it tomorrow."
Well, the MC session on Friday went all right, I guess. At least I think the MC gave my H some things to think about -- like, when you feel so horrible about what you've done try remembering that it's salvagable. Your W still loves you and wants to work on things with you. You have NOT destroyed her. You have NOT destroyed your family. Those are all very good, positive things. Start looking at it that way instead of what a mess you've made of things.
Saturday night I was really frustrated. We started talking and I got a little angry. I told him if he didn't love me enough to start considering my feelings and what I needed then maybe he just doesn't love me enough to make this M work. After all, putting his feelings first is what got us into this mess, and it seems to me he's doing the same thing now.
It was rather a long conversation and hard to remember at this point, but basically I told him that I've been through enough, and I need to stop hurting. He really doesn't get how he's still hurting me. I told him that I need reassurance of his love and committment to me. That doesn't stop just because I've forgiven him and have decided to work on our M. I want "us" back. I want to feel loved and cherished like I did in the past. I want us to be able to play and have fun with each other like we used to. He just doesn't see that happening with all that's between us now. It's not that HE doesn't feel those things. He doesn't understand how I can ever feel the same about him no matter what he does.
And, yes, I feel he does have some making up to do. I deserve for him to be willing to step up and meet whatever needs I may have towards that end. I told him I've had to put aside my pride and my ego in order to stick with him and make a go of our M.
He asked me to put myself in his shoes, try to feel what he's feeling about what he's done and how much pain he's caused me; how he could have destroyed our family. He is deeply embarassed for me to even look at him. He's humiliated beyond belief regarding his failure as a husband and father. I told him, "Considering your past behavior, you weren't such a great H, I'll give you that one, but that doesn't mean you that you can't be a great husband from now on. That wasn't the real you. If it was, you wouldn't be feeling the way you are now."
I asked him how two people could live in the same house together if one partner can't stand for the other one to even look at him? That's no way to live -- for either one of us. He said it'll just take time. I said I didn't think so. It's already been a long time -- especially for him. After all, didn't he start feeling this way almost from the beginning of the A and didn't it just get progressively worse, to the point where he had to tell me because it was so bad? Hasn't it just gotten worse since telling me because now I know all the horrible things he's done and, as he says, he can't hide from it anymore. How is it supposed to get better H? Just play the waiting game? I don't think so.
I told him he needs to be proactive in his own healing process, and that if he concentrated on doing all he can to make me feel loved and reassured maybe that in turn would help to ease his pain in the long run. Seems simple enough to me. Maybe cuz that's what I've been doing. I've been putting a lot of effort into meeting his needs and it has helped ease my own pain. But, I've had enough -- I've been through enough and he needs to take over for a while.
Long and short of it, he's going to try and stop concentrating on how miserable he is and try to start seeing how good things are (considering) and how good they can be in the future if we pull together on this. We'll see. We'll see.
Sounds to me like you did GOOD Matilda!! I personally think you handled things just right! Your H needed to hear those things! I'm not sure I could have done as well if my H was doing the same things. My H has always been stronger than me mentally and emotionally. However when he messed things up he was in a bad place emotionally. I feel that I was the stronger of the two first of all because I was in a bad place emotionally also but I didn't see an A as a means of escaping and when I found out about the A I was strong enough to forgive in spite of the extreme pain and hurt. My H has this uncanny ability to put things away in his mind when he is done with them. Sure wish I could do that!! I think the thing that helped my H to forgive himself and move on past it so quickly was the fact that I handled the original talk after discovereing the A so calmly and that I forgave him as soon as I did (he was afraid I'd tell him to pack his things and go the first day). By the way I dealt with things helped him deal with things. Yes,there are still things that I don't understand and probably never will but I have finally let that go. I have even stopped thinking about confronting the XOW!! I don't get this anger inside when I happen to think about her and I don't think about her much at all anymore! My mind has finally figured out that she is "nobody" and she means nothing to either my H or to me!! I finally made myself realize that thinking about her was like "giving her power" in my life. I got to thinking that she would just love it if she knew that I was thinking about her so I decided that I wouldn't give her the satisfaction by contacting her and telling her what was on my mind! Once I made that decision I was able to finally put her away!! Anyway,I got off the subject...sorry! I know you feel that your H has had enough time to get over the way he is feeling but then can you really put a time frame on that? He seriously needs to continue seeing the C and he is going to have to try a little harder but some people can get over things quicker than others. I'm sure it makes it harder on you having to deal with trying to get over it yourself and then you have to put up with his feelings! If your marriage is worth it and he is worth it you are going to have to stay strong and show him everyday that you are there to stay. Hang in there Matilda...you are a strong woman and you have a lot of love for your man and that will get you through this!! Sometimes men just need to be hit over the head for them to get the picture!! I think you did a good job of telling him just how things are!! You stay focused and stay strong!!
This is precicesly the advice pfroglady, Montana, and I were giving you. You told him that you're fed up with his negativity. AND you made it clear that this is not the same thing as being fed up with him.
You've told him that it's time to move on. Together.
![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon}
) that he needs to lighten-up; he's bringing me down. He says he gonna try.![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon}
) of infatuation. I wrote about it before I think in my first thread. About haven't we all longed for that rush we get from someone new who finds us attractive, sees all our wonderful qualities. That rush we get from the first kiss, etc. I think you know what I'm talking about. We've all been there. I think we've all longed for those feelings at one time or another. It can be intoxicating. And then you add into the mix the excitement of an A being "wrong," only having a few stolen moments to spend together, etc., and whala you "feel alive" again. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}
Maybe that'll make him think!! Sometimes I wish I had the ability to put things away,forget them and never ever think of them again. But God gave us brains and for some reason he gave us memories that work even when we don't want them to. 