Pfroglady is spot on. You love him, and it’ll see you through the bad times. You’re doing everything you can to convey that message to him, too.
My guess is that it’s almost a superstition. He figures that if he beats himself up enough, he’ll atone for what he did. Problem is that it’s never enough. He cannot atone for what he did – not even through self-flagellation.
That’s his cross to bear. I truly don’t think he’s trying to pawn it off on you. He’s stuck.
But, someday, he’ll manage to let it go. Some day, he’ll “get over it.”
We see it all the time – where a person acts negatively in order to positively influence others. What you (as a couple) need is to start and maintain a positive “aura” in your R. His fear stops him from seeing it that way (sigh).
Andy, I think you're "spot on" also regarding the "it will never be enough" type thinking. Last week after a conversation we had via telephone regarding some of my concerns as stated above, H sent me an E-Card which stated: "I do love you. I have a hard time being what you want me to be, especially after ... It makes it so anything I do feels like it will never do."
My response to him was: "Thank you for the card. I wish I could get you to understand how important all the little things are."
He is right, there is no way of making up for what he's done. However, making small gestures that show love and thoughtfulness certainly is better than doing nothing because "it feels like it will never do." Those things go a long way to help keep anger and resentment at bay -- or worse, emotional withdrawal.
Oh, well, it's obvious that I'm asking too much of him right now. He's doing the best that he can. I think he really wants to do some of the things I ask of him, but it doesn't feel "right" to him right now. Of course, I start thinking it's because he really doesn't love me that it doesn't feel "right" to him. I've asked him to be honest with me if that's the case, cuz I feel I deserve to know the truth after all this. He tells me he has no question in his heart that he loves me -- it's all just a matter of how he feels about himself right now. Time will tell. One thing I do know for sure -- it's his problem. He created it. He has to figure out a way to fix it for himself. I'm still staying in the moment and trying to be positive.
What would happen if you just said, “ENOUGH! I’m not going to play your game anymore! Regardless of what’s happened in the past, I love you! Get used to it! I’m staying! Get used to it!”
Maybe if he actually saw you get angry, he’ll see that anger is not going to make you leave him.
Well, last night I guess I jumped on the hormonal rollercoaster (didn't know it at the time). I was having thoughts of not being able to live with what H has done no matter how much I love him. I was thinking that at some point I'd have to take a stand for myself (much like my confrontation with the OW) with H because I was feeling that his disloyalty was just too much for me to live with. I have very strong feelings of loyalty and regard is as a very important trait in people.
Well, I manged to keep all my feelings to myself, but I guess I was a little quiet and withdrawn all evening. H noticed - kept asking me what was wrong. I'd just look at him with that "what do you mean" look and say "nothing." When we went up for bed, H asked if I'd like my back rubbed. Later when lying in bed he said, "Damn, I was going to put on music while I was rubbing your back. I forgot again." So, I don't know. Maybe he just doesn't remember some of those things, but the other things he does (like back rubbing!) is pretty good
This morning I woke up with the beginnings of a hormonal migraine and I realized that was the basis for yesterday's negative thoughts and feelings. The big difference is, is that now I can ride out that time without a big emotional scene with H regarding the A. Hopefully, as each day, week, month passes without one of those scenes both of us will be able to get over it.
Andy, do you think this is a game he's playing? I've wondered that sometimes myself. Is he trying to make me feel sorry for him with this attitude of his? Maybe at least subconsciously, because I do believe he's dreadfully sorry about the pain he's caused me, and I do believe he's mortified about his actions. But, gosh, like you said, enough already.
Some of his problem also stems from the fact that he hates his job right now. Every day is a struggle for him to go into the office. There was a reorganization in his company last December and he was moved for a job he really loved and felt was worthwhile to the one he presently has. This was just two months after dropping the bomb on me and, of course, the emotions surrounding that were still extremely high. I think (and so does MC) that he went into at least a mild depression at that time. I'm not sure that he's come completely out of it yet. H doesn't think so, but what do men know . So he's not only feeling like a failure regarding his personal life, but also his professional life. Pretty hard on a guy, huh? Can't feel too sorry for him, though. He brought on a lot of the problem himself (personal life).
I think it may be a game he's playing with himself. He's punishing himself for what he did. You aren't another player in the game of "How much can I flog myself before I feel better."
You're the whip.
I also think that if this is what he's doing, it's most certainly subconcious.
Okay, let me throw this out quickly -- don't have too much time.
What's been bothering me about this H's whole self-loathing thing is this: I read somewhere that men fall in love with women because of the way the woman makes the man feel about himself. My H said the OW said all the right things to make him "feel good" about himself, built up his self-esteem (which, by the way, is nowhere to be found now! Funny how that works.)
So my question is: if I'm the source of my H's humiliation; if every time he looks at me he feels bad about himself, feels like a failure; if he feels he doesn't deserve me, isn't good enough for me, all the other crap I've written about before, how in the hell can he continue to love ME?
You see what I'm getting at? Are his bad feelings regarding himself which obviously involve me, killing his love? I hope I'm making myself clear. I'd really like any imput anybody has on this one.
Wilma encouraged me to read the booke "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch, Ph.D.
Sage has talked about how he doesn't regret his Affair. He refuses to talk about the when, where, hows. He said for me to give him two years and then he'll be able to explain how the affair changed him; made him feel alive.
24 months of not knowing what in the world he's talking about w regard to his feeling alive again.
Ok. I really don't have a choice.
I would rather be happy (in an R with Sage) than right (knowing the details).
This book mentions monagamy. We all know that w our marriage vows we promise to "love, honor, and obey" the spousie until death do us part.
We make a vow to someone else. If we break that vow then we do emotional damage to the one we love.
Something else happens. If we break that vow we are also breaking a vow to OURSELVES to be monagamous.
I think here lies the source of the self-loathing that our Hs deal with when they look in the mirror. They have compromised their personal integrity.
I think I'm on to something here, Matilda.
What I want for my H is for him to be an honorable father for our Son. I want him to regain his sense of personal integrity so that he can "be all he can be".
I care. I think it's called mutuality but I'll have to check that.
I've read elsewhere that these spousies sometime have trouble recommitting to the R unless they "know" that they are accepted as is.
I told Sage yesterday that I wouldn't change a thing about him. Then I laughed as we exchanged that look about his not loving me. I then told him that I couldn't change that. We shared a 'couple' laugh.
Matilda,
This book is also helping me understand why Sage was led to look elsewhere. I still have much to read and process but it is helping me.
Maybe you'll read it. Maybe it will help you find the peace of mind and heart that you long for these days.
My best to you, dear Matilda!'
Also, our C had me draw a line to help me establish respect for me. She asked me to name what would cause me to kick Sage out.
I told him another affair. It's taking everything I've got to get past this one and I don't have it in me to do it again.
That gave Sage a boundary. He repects it.
I don't like living w a forced boundary. I think that Sage doesn't like it either. I am going to ask our C when and how to properly remove that boundary and let Sage be responsible for his own integrity in our R. I think that Sage regards this as part of a discipline and it doesn't set well. C might say that the verbal boundary should exist. I seek her guidance on this. Sage has told me that he's not going anywhere; not leaving the marriage. That's a statement supporting his integrity. Ah, this is confusing me. Actions speak louder than words. Wait, Lily. Wait.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: if I'm the source of my H's humiliation; if every time he looks at me he feels bad about himself, feels like a failure; if he feels he doesn't deserve me, isn't good enough for me, all the other crap I've written about before, how in the hell can he continue to love ME?
That’s an easy one, Mattie.
You’re not the source of his humiliation. He is. You said it in your post. It’s self-loathing.
You’re trying to make him feel good about himself, and he sees that. Running away from you would do nothing to his self-esteem, and he knows it.
Why does he love you? I read somewhere that we think we can list a bunch of qualities that make us love a person. They’re honest, fun, etc. etc. But, we miss the point. We love someone because they have lovable qualities. These are much more difficult to define.
He’s not looking for your forgiveness, Mattie. You’ve already given him that. He’s looking for some way… Any way… to forgive himself.
It isn’t working for him, but he can’t think of a better way. I like Mick’s analogy (read it on another thread somewhere):
I’ve been boiling this egg for over an hour, and it’s still hard.
Perhaps the only thing you can do to help him is to stop letting him use you to play this head-game he has going on. Have you thought about what I said? Maybe if you just out-and-out tell him that it’s his problem, and he has to deal with it. Tell him you’re not going anywhere while he works it out. That you’ll continue to love him while he works it out. But you’re not going to contribute to his bad feelings.
Sage told me a long time ago when I asked what I could do to make me be the kind of woman he could love (pre DB, pre terror). He said I was the kind of woman he could fall in love with.
I think tying your post on self-esteem, add self-forgiveness, and my post on self- integrity is a good thing to process.
All the affirmation in the world isn't going to fix this. It's a matter of self-processing, self-knowledge, and self-governing.
Owning the mistake is vital as is forgiving yourself for what you've done. It seems that once you do that then you begin to reestablish your self-integrity.
Sage is processing right now. He told me a long time ago that maybe God has forgiven him but he hasn't forgiven himself. I think he is trying to establish his integrity by his actions rather than his words.
Matilda, thanks for letting me process through on your thread.
MATILDA, I CAN COMPLETELY EMPATHIZE WITH YOU! I THINK ONE OF THE WORST PARTS OF GETTING OVER THE A, IS PLAYING WHAT YOIU BELIEVE HAPPENED WITH OW IN YOUR HEAD. HAVE YOU ASKED YOUR H DETAILS? I KNOW THIS IS VERY PAINFUL, AND NOT FOR EVERYONE, BUT I NEEDED TO KNOW. NOT EVERY DETAIL, BUT AT LEAST ENOUGH SO I DIDN'T HAVE TO MAKE UP MY OWN VERSION. ( WHICH BY THE WAY WAS MUCH WORSE THAN HIS) I DON'T KNOW IF IT ACTUALLY HELPS OR NOT, IT'S BEEN 2 YEARS NOW SINCE THE A CAME OUT IN THE OPEN, AND I STILL REPLAY THE EVENTS. I THINK THIS IS VERY HARMFUL TO MY MARRIAGE THOUGH. I KNOW WE HAVE CONTROL TO SOME EXTENT OVER OUR THOUGHTS, AND I THINK RELIVING IT EVERY TIME IT POPS INTO OUR HEADS IS DESTRUCTIVE. JUST MY OPINION, WHO KNOWS IF IT'S RIGHT.
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. So he's not only feeling like a failure regarding his personal life, but also his professional life. Pretty hard on a guy, huh? Can't feel too sorry for him, though. He brought on a lot of the problem himself (personal life).