OK ... so H was still seeing the other one ("OO"). The OO had purchased a plane ticket for H to go to Florida for a week - on a vacation, and to meet the kids (the OO's) and spend some time with them. I told H that if he went to Florida and took such a drastic step, that we were over. He said two weeks ago that he wasn't going.
Thursday night he brought up the "possibility" of going to Florida again. He wanted to know if it would really mean immediate divorce. We talked through most of the night on Thursday. He admitted that he had requested vacation time from his day job, and had made arrangements to cover all of his karaoke shows for two weekends (at extraordinary cost to "our" budget).
His flight was at 12:50 on Friday ... he didn't go. He went into work for a few hours. I found out later that he had just rescheduled the flight for 12:50 on Saturday and had told the OO that he was talking to me and couldn't get to the airport on time. On Saturday, he still didn't leave for the flight. Still told the OO that we were talking and he was running late for the plane. I was with him and we were talking through both of these "countdowns." By this time I had checked the flight schedules and knew that the next one was at 7:30. I told him I couldn't do the countdown thing again and left the house to go to a friend's house. He called from the airport. He tried to call several times from the plane. I didn't answer ... the only thing he could tell me that I wanted to hear was that he wasn't going and he could say that at the front door after leaving the airport.
According to friends and his mother, he realized that he had made a horrible mistake as soon as he was on the plane, spent the flight writing me a long note, but got to Florida and made no attempt to actually turn around and come home. He's with the OO and the kids and the OO's friends. He has not even attempted to make any direct contact with me. Friends say that he is completely miserable when he's on the phone, until the OO or someone else comes in the room and then he puts on his "happy face" and matching voice and gets on with their plans.
He's right ... he did make a horrible mistake. I don't want this to be over, but I cannot cope with this unbelievable indecision any more. Since the OO appeared on the scene, and especially since H left the house almost a month ago, I have done my part to right the wrongs that I had done to him throughout our marriage, and to GAL and make positive changes in my life. I have done so ... I'm exercising, losing weight, eating right, keeping the house clean, being less controlling, etc. However, so much of what I am doing is a long-term project. I can't, for instance, give him far more control over our joint finances overnight because he's not in a position to deal with them and we are far too financially precarious to take a chance. I can't show him the respect that I have for his choices and his work and his life in a single day or week or month. It will take time to show that I have changed.
In the meantime, he has completely gone downhill. He's not eating or sleeping at all, he's about to lose his job because he can't pay attention and can't get his work done, he made a choice to throw away his relationship with me and everything that entails because he's "in love" with the OO ... who he has known for less than four months.
I'm angry that he's so screwed up. I'm angry that he would throw everything away for a chance - a chance at nothing.
I don't really want this marriage to be over, but, I'm moving on. He has to do some serious catching-up on making positive changes in his life for me to be able to forgive this and move on with him.
I know that I haven't really posed many questions, but I would really appreciate any input from those of you who are out there reading ...
-- Kacee
Oh yeah ... his birthday was yesterday ... happy birthday, honey!
I guess the only thing I can say is why did you give him the ultimatum? Were you seriuos or were you just trying to force him not to go? Either way if you back down now he's never going to take any threats or ultimatums seriuosly. If this is truelly unacceptable to you he needs to know that.
I was serious ... how can I continue to try to rebuild a relationship with someone who will throw 17 years away, along with my entire family and everything that I'm associated with for someone who he barely knows?
I can't continue to live with this man ... he's not at all the person I married, not the person I want to spend my life with.
On the other hand ... I'm not running to the divorce court tomorrow. I sincerely hope that he can "catch up" with me and at least begin to show that he can again be the sweet, kind, loving man that he really is at heart. It's in the "in between" ... between not running to divorce court tomorrow and moving on with my life in such a way that we end up so far apart that we can't get back together at all.
It was - and is - completely unacceptable. But, he might be able to work a miracle and make "amends." It would be a pretty major miracle at this point. I've heard absolutely nothing since he left for Florida ... he's even quit checking in with friends.
So at this point Kacee, this is all about what HE's done. What are YOU doing? What have YOU discovered about your part in all this and what changes are you going to make to better yourself, and in turn, maybe better your situation, with or without him.
I think if you've spent any time reading threads here, you know that's what we're all about, self-analysis and not focusing on the affair as a cause but rather a symptom of larger issues in the marriage. Thinking of him as an evil screw-up is not really productive. He made choices, yes, bad ones, but choices that HE believes will lead to his happiness. People who are otherwise happy don't usually have to make those kinds of choices.
The idea here is not to take blame for his affair, but to stop blaming altogether. There is blame enough to go around and you could both keep pointing the finger for the rest of your lives (because believe me, he blames YOU for a lot of what made him stray, right or wrong) but it will do nothing to either mend your marriage or allow you to move on without each other.
From what you post, it seems like this is NOT someone who is sure of himself. He seems like he has remorse and guilt at least, and maybe even more than that. He's stuck between the life he THOUGHT he didn't want, and the new one he THINKS he does.
You DO have a decision to make. If you truly feel that you cannot love him anymore because of this, then you should make plans to move on. If, on the other hand, you are not 100% committed to that course of action, then maybe you could read DB/DR (or re-read them if you have already) and start to work on yourself while this part of the story plays out.
In your stich, I see it as largely hinging on your decisions because it FEELS like he may want to return but there are obstacles in his way, namely your anger and rejection.
Please, most of all, take care of you. You ARE on the $hit end of this and while I am talking a lot about what YOU can do now, and may have done in the past, where you are today is no fun place to be, this I know. If nothing else, try to do something for you today, take your mind off things, and then start fresh tomorrow.
Quote: What have YOU discovered about your part in all this and what changes are you going to make to better yourself, and in turn, maybe better your situation, with or without him.
Let's assume for a moment that all the problems in the marriage were my fault. I know that he screwed up his fair share of things as well, but also know that I can't change any of that ... only myself.
So: his version of what I'm doing wrong would be something like this, as far as I know -
I am too controlling.
I am "in charge" of everything. We live very near the edge financially, and I "have" to keep a tight rein on all spending just to keep afloat. I do not trust him to handle any of the finances, or even to tell him "where" the finances are located.
I don't respect him. I think he's flaky and virtually incapable of doing his job ... or at least doing his job "right" (that is - the way I would do it).
I don't care what he has to say ... when he is telling me something, I am impatient and anxious for him to get to the point instead of listening to the details. He feels he is wasting my time when he speaks.
I have no friends of my own and no social life that is not intertwined with his.
I think I'm better than most of his friends because they have dead-end jobs, or get evicted for not paying rent, or get pregnant by the latest boyfriend. I judge their situation and by doing so, judge them.
I don't respect his choices and decisions. I think that he is virtually incapable of making a "good" choice or decision (i.e. well-reasoned and thought out).
He has no privacy in his life because I have constant access to everything. I pay all of the bills, so I see the charges, the cell phone records, the home phone records, etc. I am the "webmaster" for our email domain and have clear access to his email. I am a computer expert that can get access to whatever of his other information that I want. We are on IM virtually all day, every day so I know when he gets to work, when he gets up from his desk for more than ten minutes, when he leaves, and so on.
I complain about not having much of a sex life (good when it happens, but infrequent) but I don't "take care of myself" [his subtle way of telling me I need to lose weight ... he's right].
I think that he's basically irresponsible and unable to really take care of himself if left to his own devices.
I could, of course, come back with perfectly reasonable answers to all of the above, and explain exactly why he's wrong in thinking all of that and create a list of what he needs to change, but I've tried to keep my editorializing to a minimum.
I am making very positive changes in my life, and I will come out of this OK - with him or without him. I am going to the Y, I am going out with my friends from school and cultivating relationships that I never have before. I have actually participated in his karaoke shows - by singing in front of real, live people! - instead of sitting there doing my homework [trust me ... the singing thing was huge]. And so on and so on.
Where I am having trouble seeing what I can do is in trying to make our interactions "right" and what I can do to change some of my reactions to him when he is not making positive changes. For instance, I am trying to show that I respect his decisions ... I told him that I thought he made the right decision to move out a few weeks ago and have validated the choices that *he* has made about how much contact we have and validated his very real complaints about our relationship. I'm afraid I didn't do a very good job of validating the Florida thing though.
How do you show someone that you respect his decisions and life skills when you patently disagree with the decisions he is making?
How do you show someone that you are learning to appreciate his communication style when you don't talk to each other any more?
How do you show someone that you think he is capable of handling the finances and that you would actually appreciate the help when he has walked away from all involvement with the household?
How do you show someone that you think he can be self-sufficient when he is running at break-neck speed towards a physical meltdown?
How do you show someone that you are giving him the privacy that he asks for when all you can do is say, "trust me ... I'm not snooping"?
He has noticed the positive changes that I am making for myself, but I think that it may be coming across as yet more of me looking out for myself and leaving him in the dust. I don't know how to show him that I can - and am - learning to love him "better." I don't think that he believes I can.
I think you're going to first need to take some time as GH suggests to assess how you feel about your M and what end result you want. I recently gave my H an ultimatum of sorts as well. The problem with ultimatums is this: you have to be prepared to follow through with what you have said. Otherwise you run the risk of making idle threats and your H won't take you seriously.
So you have to ask yourself if you are really prepared for things to be over. I'll go ahead and take the risk of assuming you are not. Otherwise you would not have found your way to this Web site.
I would suggest it is a good time for you to go dark. Have you read Michele's books yet. If not, get your hands on a copy of DB and DR.
It is a good sign that your H regretted going on the trip. That said, if you were to take him back immediately (that is backing down from your ultimatum) you will probably both fall back into old patterns. He will assume he can do whatever he wants without consequences (and the problems that led to his A will still exist) and you will have not take the time to understand the role you are playing in the breakup of your M and in his A.
Have you taken a hard look at the underlying problems in your M? As much as many of us don't want to admit, just because we're not the ones cheating doesn't mean we're not equally to blame. Until my H had not one A, but two, I never realized how much he meant to me and that I completely took him for granted.
Great post Kacee. BTW, I ran into your other thread as I was bumping around. Sorry, I didn't realize you had one.
Quote: So: his version of what I'm doing wrong would be something like this, as far as I know -
Ok, well unless he's told you these things and that's what you are posting to us, quotes from him, I would suggest that you DO feel this way/are this way. A lot of this sounds like how YOU feel rather than how HE feels. Could that be?
You said you could answer each of these charges. If that's true, then does that mean you think they're untrue to a certain extent? How about posting those answers. I think it may help separate what is really an issue you need to address from the things HE may feel, but are truly off base.
Quote: I am making very positive changes in my life, and I will come out of this OK - with him or without him. I am going to the Y, I am going out with my friends from school and cultivating relationships that I never have before. I have actually participated in his karaoke shows - by singing in front of real, live people! - instead of sitting there doing my homework [trust me ... the singing thing was huge]. And so on and so on.
GREAT FOR YOU! This is essential, and I think you know that.
Quote: Where I am having trouble seeing what I can do is in trying to make our interactions "right" and what I can do to change some of my reactions to him when he is not making positive changes.
You may not be able to make your interactions "right" but you can control your reactions. You just have to learn your triggers and then work to identify them as they are happening. When you can identify a trigger as it's happening, i.e. him talking about finances which may put you on the defensive because you do so much work in that respect and how dare he question your handling of it (just an example, I have NO idea if this is close to your sitch), and then immediately control your reaction to it, allowing you to CHOOSE how to react, then you will achieve some success.
Quote: For instance, I am trying to show that I respect his decisions ... I told him that I thought he made the right decision to move out a few weeks ago and have validated the choices that *he* has made about how much contact we have and validated his very real complaints about our relationship. I'm afraid I didn't do a very good job of validating the Florida thing though.
This is a sticky place for me too. I think we both have to be careful, especially since both of our spouses have accused us of being controlling (and my W has said I act like her father more than husband), not to come across as being "proud" of them for things. I am trying to figure this one out myself, but from what you posted, it seems like he may be taking it this way, hearing something like "Honey, I'm SO proud of you for finally taking a stand for yourself, especially since you never do that. I want you to know I think that's great and keep it up!"
Quote: How do you show someone that you respect his decisions and life skills when you patently disagree with the decisions he is making?
Well, if you don't respect those things, it's pretty hard. I would say the question is can you live with him without passing judgment on his life skills and accepting the decisions he makes so long as they don't too negatively affect your life? Sometimes the only way people learn to make better decisions is to make a crap-load of bad ones. I think our problem tends to be that we feel like it's our job to help them not make those bad decisions. If you read Mars/Venus, it talks a LOT about how many men feel put off by unsolicited advice. Maybe there is a lot of that going on here?
Quote: How do you show someone that you are learning to appreciate his communication style when you don't talk to each other any more?
I don't know that you need to so much learn to appreciate his specific communication style so much as the difference between men and women in general. Someday, he may also have to learn these differences in order to manage his responses to them.
Quote: How do you show someone that you think he is capable of handling the finances and that you would actually appreciate the help when he has walked away from all involvement with the household?
Do you REALLY think he is? I suspect, since my W also handles all the finances and this is how I feel (please correct me if I am merely projecting on your sitch), that your H feels that you DON'T think he can handle the finances. More than that, I bet that has been communicated to him either directly or indirectly. Has he ever offered to help out? I know i have and am always told "It's ok, I've got it." Any chance that he's spent years feeling that you didn't think he could handle this? If so, it may take more than you saying once or twice "Hey H, could you help me with this" before he feels that you trust him in this respect and are not just blowing smoke up his arse.
Quote: How do you show someone that you think he can be self-sufficient when he is running at break-neck speed towards a physical meltdown?
You can't. You can only set an example and maybe try to nudge him in that direction, but I don't think we can control our WAS's or directly "help" them pull out of whatever they are going through. At least that's what DB/DR tells us, and I am inclined to believe it.
BTW, do you REALLY think he is capable of this, or do you just hope he is?
Quote: How do you show someone that you are giving him the privacy that he asks for when all you can do is say, "trust me ... I'm not snooping"?
Again, you don't, or well, you do by just NOT SNOOPING. Maybe let him change the password to his email. Have him set up a new account with Hotmail or something. I think this is just one case where you just have to have the personal integrity to follow through on what you say and if he believes you, great, if not, well...
Quote: He has noticed the positive changes that I am making for myself, but I think that it may be coming across as yet more of me looking out for myself and leaving him in the dust. I don't know how to show him that I can - and am - learning to love him "better." I don't think that he believes I can.
Ok, I am going to tread on thin ice here, go out on a limb, and any other cliche you want to use to say I may not know what the hell I am talking about.
From what I read, it seems like there is a dynamic here where BOTH of you think you are superior to him. I think for any progress to be made, and for you to "love him better" that dynamic needs to change. I think you know that, but I also think, honestly, that you still feel superior to him in many ways and that is slowing your progress. Maybe you ARE superior to him in many ways but it may serve you better to concentrate on the things he IS good at, things that maybe he is better at. You fell in love with him for some reason, and it's THAT reason(s) that make him your equal in all this, not his skills on the web or finances.
SuperStressed: I have read DB ... not DR. I have been dark for almost four weeks, with the exception of the communication that he and I agreed to at the beginning and what he has initiated otherwise.
I'm in a position that is difficult to explain: I absolutely do not want this marriage to be over, but meant what I told him when I said that we would be over if he went to Florida. The fact that he was willing to do that says to me that he thinks we have so little worth saving that he would risk it all to see what might happen with the OO and that it was more important to keep growing that relationship than to work on ours. If he feels otherwise now, and is willing to cut off all contact with the OO and start working on us instead, then we might get somewhere. I just don't see him making that commitment when he is in the mindset that took him to Florida in the first place. Without that, I have to move on with my life. What I'm afraid of most is that, while he regretted going when he was on the plane, that after eight days with the OO, he may not be regretting it any more and will decide that the OO was, in fact, "better."
GH:
Where to start? While my list was not direct quotes from him (he is far too conflict-avoiding to even begin to tell me half of that) I think it is an accurate representation of how he feels, from what he has told me and what he has told others ... and even from what I know about myself. I know that I am all of those things ...
Quote: How about posting those answers.
It's not that my answers to the "charges" are because I think they are untrue ... it's that there is another side to the story. This is all just a circle, isn't it?
First example: I'm in charge of the finances because they come "easily" to me and it just makes sense for me (the tax/math/detail-oriented person) to take care of them. This means that he doesn't have to take responsibility for them and eventually feels that I don't think he is capable of doing so which makes him resent me for being controlling so he "acts out" and does something irresponsible that proves why I have to be in charge of the finances.
Second example: He has a hard time at work because he is in a very detail-oriented job but has pretty severe attention deficit disorder, which was never treated, so we managed it as well as we could, and he would end up letting things slide at work and have to ask me for help to finish this or that project which I would do which would make him feel like he couldn't do his job and that I could do it better. Etc.
But ... I know I have to change all of those things, whether to maintain a relationship with him or to avoid screwing up my next one. Controlling b*tch doesn't go over too well for too long. I may have an excuse for why I do the things I do, but that doesn't change the fact that I do them and they are making him unhappy.
Quote: Sometimes the only way people learn to make better decisions is to make a crap-load of bad ones.
This past six months is probably the first time in his life that he has actually made decisions instead of having someone else make them for him (not always me, but usually) or having "life" make them for him because he waited too long to make a choice. I guess he has to get through his bad ones now.
Quote: read Mars/Venus ... difference between men and women in general ...
OK, I am ordering this now because I've just had a blinding flash of the obvious (as my father would say). I have always assumed that my communication style was way more Mars than Venus. It is, on the surface. Way more dangerous, though, I have also been assuming the opposite ... that his is more Venus than Mars. What if I'm wrong?! What if reading that would tell me not only more about how he thinks/communicates, but more about me?
Quote: BTW, do you REALLY think he is capable of this, or do you just hope he is?
Right now ... he isn't capable of handling finances or much of anything else. He doesn't even remember to eat and is only sleeping about 3 hours a night. He is physically falling apart. But, he's doing it on his own and with his own money for food/lodging/expenses, etc. I can't just hand over financial control to him for everything, not now, but he at least has control over his own stuff. He is also taking meds for the ADD for the first time ... they have been wonderful for work, but make it easier for him to not eat and not sleep, so somewhat of a catch-22 there.
Quote: it seems like there is a dynamic here where BOTH of you think you are superior to him
Limb or ice or whatever ... this is very accurate. My skills and strengths are those that are "traditionally" rewarded ... I had a very successful first career traveling around the world, was a super star at work, and am now in law school and doing very well there ... everything that I am good at translates easily into visible signs of success ... money, career, etc.
He speaks four languages, is an incredibly talented singer and actor and has acted on stages throughout the world. But, acting/singing is a "dreamers" life and doesn't pay the bills and speaking four languages doesn't do much good if you can't concentrate long enough to finish a task. For the past three years while I've been in law school, he has worked as an admin assistant ... a job that is the antithesis to who he is. I think we both forgot that it was temporary. I was always the main and often sole income earner. Before going back to school, I would tell him that if he would do what needed to be done to get me through, then I would again be earning a living sufficient for both of us and he could get back on stage and "play." How horrible.
It has only recently come to me how soul-destroying that probably was ... even though what I meant at the time that we would be able to get back to a point where he could follow his dreams instead of being behind a desk.
What I would rather see now, but am afraid that may be too late, is that he find a way to use those incredible talents of his to also be successful in the more traditional sense ... own & manage a karaoke bar, or own & manage a production company to stage plays and musicals ... turn the "dreamers" life into a "grown-up" one that still lets him be who he was meant to be and make use of his own unique set of talents.
All I can do now is hope that he comes through his current crisis with the OO so that we can start working on our numerous issues and head out towards a new life instead of being back where we were.
I just keep thinking about the life we could have if we were building each other up and supporting each other with our differences instead of being dysfunctional and codependent.
H is due back in town sometime today. I have been at my parents' house three hours away for most of the week. I want so desperately to go home right now. I want to be there and hear him tell me that he is so completely sorry, and ask me to forgive him and tell me that he has cut off all contact with the OO because he realizes that I am the only one he'll ever love.
I just want to go home ... but I know that I probably wouldn't hear any of those things and that is breaking my heart all over again ...
He's home ... still hasn't called me ... our mutual friend who has tried her best to keep us both sane talked to him for a while ...
Nothing has changed ... he's still confused, still "in love" with the OO, had a decent time in Florida, drove back with the OO and son and had visions of what their future could be like ... driving on a sunny day in a convertible with the top down and Stevie Wonder playing on the radio ...
Why can't he remember that we had dreams like that too? That we had dreams of having our own children? Why does he think it would be better to be an every-other-weekend stepdad to someone else's?
And ... he's not calling me because he doesn't know what to say ...
And I keep thinking I have no tears left anymore ...
What if reading that would tell me not only more about how he thinks/communicates, but more about me? 