Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Am I Creating a SSM Part V

Heather. I don't usually respond to your posts because I see your H as so rigid and righteous in his own mind. I have been reading your thread for some time

I am glad you had the advice from Cobra and saw a side of your H and his computer activities. You know he has a SD but not with you that includes affection and much caring like an EC.

No advice fro me because I think you already have better advice. Just wanted to show my support for you in a small way.

Lou

She said that what he is doing is not ok and that his reactions are really over the top and not typical.

Well there is no solution in there, nor is it helpful in any way shape or form. Have you considered using a DB coach heather?

Chrome, you must not know me well enough to know that I don't hold back much

I had to laugh. thats exactly the same thought I had when I read chromo comment.
He's made it so dang clear he doesn't care
That is your pespective. To me, his actions show the someone who was so hurt, he wants to prevent it from happening again. that is someone who is enmeshed, not someone who doesnt care. But the same applies to you. I see you continuing with the mental thoughts of....

If he... then.....

It occurred to me yesterday that my H has actually divorced *me* emotionally. He has taken away any and all symbols of M and has made himself almost totally emotionally unavailable. Yeah this is a serious mistake on his part. most likely you will follow him down this road. I understand.

The unfairness that I am expected to keep trying, keep morphing while he sits in judgment of everything, never having to acknowledge his wrongs or his negative contributions to ANYthing. And then I get evil. And the cycle goes on. And on. I have got to break it and I feel like the only way I will ever break it is to step out of the situation that I feel is so unjust. That means to leave our home. I do not want a divorce. I want our M to work.

I wonder what his perspective of who started the cycle and then he becomes evil is. Im sure it goes way back before the A. If he wanted a D dont you think he would file? If he didnt want to be married, why doesnt he kick you out? or move on? why does he plan vacations with you as a family, etc etc etc.

this time I will be really consistent, seek nothing in return, e no one here thinks you should seek nothing in return. There is a huge difference in seeking something, and trying to force, demand and use your weapons of battle, warrior girl.

Im not even gonna bother touching the porn issue. Your both so P/A right now, and you are setting yourself up with your comments, for more entitlement, and integrity stuff....... yes I am. that was a wiped and old harddrive. reviewing it and conjuring up -could be, -maybes etc, was just sucking your love bank dry. But I have used that tactic myself too.

It is also a sad way to live your life to look back and wish you could have made things work, to wish your kids had one happy home, to wish for family vacations again.
The whole thing sucks so bad I could puke.

I know.

In rereading my post to you about being P/A, I noticed a couple things. 1) Im really really hyper critical of self. no this in not a revelation, but I never thought of it as being detrimental, to myself or to my SO.


2) the quitting my job and moving back to CA was not really P/A. It was a very multifacted decision that made me crazy, but it was really just very assertive for my own needs.

the going dark and giving her the 'whatever you want' however, the second time was. I didnt want to be the 'bad guy' and end the M, nor was I willing to do what it would take, when she wasnt willing to deal with me, about my anger over the EA and chose instead to deal with it, by having a PA. Dr. Harley warned me about the anger, and it was a very very unalpha thing to do. Not doing what I know would work the second seperation, and doing what I knew is typical of hurt men, but drives women nuts, was pretty weak of me. more criticism of self, but I forgive myself for that weakness. The PA was too much for me. I would be prouder of myself if I had just gone and filed, rather then whipping her, every time she tried to make contact, with my P/A tactics.
Easy to see now. Not so easy when you are stuck in the fog.

I hope you see my point heather. you are not making a decision. Your not doing what it takes, (committing) and not willing to end it either. Mrs. Nops gave you some real and specific ways of thinking and doing this. saying I wont commit to the marriage the way it is, is a sort of power play. The M will not stay the way it is, if you change. That doesnt mean you have to morph into what you think, he thinks you should. (that was fun to write to.) both of you attending MC is not necessary.

I think there may have been a time when seperating would have had a positive effect on your M. Now I think it will just add reinforcments to your H walling you out.

someone named WCW pasted a pretty good article on the on mercurial nature of marriage, in F4W current thread.

Blackfoot,

Great comments as usual…


Heather,

I’ve been meaning to reply, but can’t add much more to what Blackfoot has said. One thing I did have in mind to run past you was the anger issue that keeps haunting you. Say for the sake of argument you move out, but 6 months from now you find you are still angry, and since your H is not around, you can’t blame him for it. What will you do now? Will you face the fact that your anger is because of you, not because of him, and if you want to get into the FOO thing, you may even be able to say your anger is from something in your childhood. So maybe you go see a counselor and work through this. Why wait to do this later? Why not do it now?

Maybe your anger is completely due to your H and has nothing to do with your FOO. Then putting off the counseling till later may be better since moving out should cure you of your anger. But if that isn’t likely, why jeopardize the marriage when there is something you can do now, even though it may seem like a minor thing.

Your reasons for not printing out that article Lil posted sounded deterministic, self-defeating and basically hoping for a death wish. If he reads the article and throws it in the trash, so what? It’s worth a try. Everything is worth a try, not just for sake of the marriage, but for you personally. You have been posting on this board for a long time, but now that I think about it, I’m not really sure what you two have done to move forward since you stopped seeing the MC. I am thinking that you two are both avoiding making the hard choices, preferring to complain about the other not moving forward and how stuck you are. This will take care of it self one way or another. Either you or he will pull yourself up and make the decision to grow or one of you will get so sick of the situation that you will bolt. I’d go for the first choice.

Just wanted to show my support for you in a small way.

Thanks Lou. I read your thread as well.

Well there is no solution in there, nor is it helpful in any way shape or form. Have you considered using a DB coach heather?

I know. I've talked to a coach once. I actually paid for three sessions and have two left. But I'd have to pick just one thing to discuss because our situation is so multi faceted that even with going to counseling once a week, I still have new stuff to talk about every single time, lol. Knowing my situation, what would you say are the most critical issues in my R?
I know what my C said wasn't very positive or solution oriented. She was just giving me her opinion and she made that clear. She said that my H shows an unmeasured amount of self control (for instance with his drinking) and probably gets most of his sexual needs met with his pornography habit, so he will probably be able to apply the same amount of self control to shutting me out as long as it is still comfortable for him to do so (i.e. I'm still here, the kids are still here). At some point, you have to go with the odds, ya know? My H has displayed many of the same characteristics during our entire R and he shows no intention to change or even acknowledgement that anything needs to change. So then....where were we? Positive solution oriented, yes. Problem is, I just don't see it.

To me, his actions show the someone who was so hurt, he wants to prevent it from happening again.

Possibly. Either way I read it, I don't think a mistake on my judgment here will lead to a critical error on my part. Whatever his reasons are for acting the way he's acting, doesn't change the effect it has on me and the R.

I wonder what his perspective of who started the cycle and then he becomes evil is. Im sure it goes way back before the A. If he wanted a D dont you think he would file? If he didnt want to be married, why doesnt he kick you out? or move on? why does he plan vacations with you as a family, etc etc etc.

He says I hated him for years...because of his drinking. On a level, he is right, I did have hateful feelings toward him much of the time. And you know how hindsight is 20/20? I still think I should have left him then. I don't look back and say 'gosh I was so mean for no reason at all'. He was a very unmotivated guy who drank way too much, didn't help with much around the house at ALL, stayed up way too late, slept in way too late and played video games way too much. I worked, went to school (honor student the whole time, never received lower than a B-), was in a sorority, took care of the house chores, and made time for my friends and family. He was just in some other plane, always.

He doesn't leave me because he knows he won't get to see his kids every day. Our kids define him. He is a Dad. Beyond that, I don't think H knows what to do with himself and as long as he is totally enmeshed with the kids, S5 in particular, he doesn't have to figure it out. AND he gets to act self righteous about it at the same time because he's such a great Dad.

He probably plans vacations with me because I pay for them, lol. No really, I know he values the family unit if only for the sake of the kids. He values my input to the family.

Oh, and he already tried to kick me out once. I came back.

no one here thinks you should seek nothing in return.

I guess that comment came from my guilt over not being able to love H without the expectation that he should love me back. Is that proof that I am selfish? Do some people really live their lives loving someone who doesn't appear to love them back? My H hasn't told me he loves me in two years and the few times he's been asked, he says he doesn't know. I can't tell if I'm supposed to live up to higher standards and hold myself to some greater purpose or if I have a right to expect to be loved back.....it's in my selfish nature to expect I should be loved back without too long of an intermission.

Also, Corri's comments to me way back about dropping the sense of entitlement and losing my expectations. I don't seem to be able to do that. If I stay and try, I expect to see that my M is working. Every night I go to sleep on the couch is a huge jab in the ribs that tells me it *isn't* working.

Im not even gonna bother touching the porn issue.

It really helps me get to a mental place where I feel better about leaving. It hurts me that much....I'll never, ever forget him telling me that he likes to look at beautiful women. I can't remember the last time my H told me I was beautiful. Several of the sites I found, you choose 'models'. You pick the girls. It takes my breath away to know this. I just wanted to know how much....how big of a habit is it? Also, I was concerned about things like, how young does he go? I need to know some of this stuff. I know it sucks the love bank dry. I want it to.

Im really really hyper critical of self. no this in not a revelation, but I never thought of it as being detrimental, to myself or to my SO.

I think when we are too critical of ourselves, we assume that everyone else is just as critical of us. We create pressure on ourselves, but perceive it as coming from others.

I would be prouder of myself if I had just gone and filed, rather then whipping her, every time she tried to make contact, with my P/A tactics.

I would have had more respect for H as well if he had done this. I also think that I would have more respect for myself if I do it rather than stay on the fence because I can't tolerate the way he treats me but can't tolerate leaving either. I can't change the way he treats me, but I can sure as hell leave. That makes me feel like I should empower myself where I can and it is hard to respect anything less.

Your not doing what it takes, (committing) and not willing to end it either.

You're right. I won't do what it will take.....the things that H is claiming is proof of my lack of commitment is crap. He tries to make me accountable for things I can't even control....for example, he has the password to my email account. But how does he know I don't have others? I can't go to dinner or a movie with a friend because how does he know that's where I am? I give him permission to follow me and he tells me he doesn't want to be that kind of person. He makes me feel like an idiot for even suggesting that he get the kids together and follow me. Well, where does that leave us then?? I'm not willing to say that I'll always limit my freedom like that....I'm not willing to agree that refusing to limit my freedom like that proves my lack of commitment. If he can't see my commitment, what good is it?

Cobra, even if I leave, I will probably still harbor some anger somewhere inside because things didn't have to be like this. If he would just work with me instead of against me, we could make this M a beautiful thing. His refusal to work with me while at the same time blaming me for 'doing this to the kids' will probably always, at the very least, give me long pause.

Because I've been with H since I was 17, he practically is my FOO. I'm not one to keep grudges....when a behavior goes away, I don't see myself as the kind of person that keeps bringing it up, etc. I am forgiving and empathetic by nature. I believe in people, I trust people. I almost always give the benefit of the doubt. I know I had a lonely childhood, but what bothers me the most is how I acted during my teenage years. I was looking for intimacy from males, but didn't know how to connect. One night stands are a big part of my teenage history. Then I met H. He swung in the complete opposite direction of a one night stand, wanting a say in every single thing I did. If a one night stand wasn't love (and I knew it wasn't), then the R with my H must be it right?
I don't deny that I have regrets about my childhood, but they are just regrets. I'm not angry about it. My sister is and I can easily recognize it in her, but her and my older brother had an even more difficult childhood than I did by far. I have trouble understanding her anger....she is 42 years old....I've had trouble relating to how she feels.
H and I simply got together when we were far too young and I was not a healthy individual nor was he.
I don't think my parents have a whole lot to do with this. I fully expect that while I would be so very, very sad at the implications of a separation, my anger would resolve itself. UNLESS H played power trips regarding the kids. That could definitely affect my ability to process my anger toward him.

You have been posting on this board for a long time, but now that I think about it, I’m not really sure what you two have done to move forward since you stopped seeing the MC.

Well, we had our Memorial Day weekend trip. It was awesome, we had a great time. I asked for what I wanted and he complied (slept in the same bed as me), we had great sex. Then when we got home H brought us back to the same issues by refusing my request to allow me to sleep in our bed. He said he wasn't ready, he used all the things I've 'done' as proof of my lack of commitment, etc. As long as he relates everything I do that he doesn't like as a reason that I shouldn't be allowed to sleep in my bed, he'll always be able to justify it. He insists that I'm not sorry and not committed and in my heart I know that I *am* sorry and that I have tried very hard to commit (although I also admit I frustrate easily...but I've kept trying). So, I know what he says isn't true and if he hasn't seen that in me, then I know the likelihood of him ever 'seeing' it is probably slim. UNLESS I can tell myself I'll do whatever he wants (because that IS what it would take) in order to save our M....and I won't tell myself that. I am a grown woman....I don't want to go back to where I was at 17, feeling too scared to do the wrong thing, say the wrong thing, wear the wrong thing or else H will be upset with me or not want to be with me anymore (not physically but emotionally, I know he won't leave physically b/c of the kids). I refuse to go back in time like that.

Either you or he will pull yourself up and make the decision to grow or one of you will get so sick of the situation that you will bolt. I’d go for the first choice.

I think a decision to leave could be a decision to grow.
Not the direction I planned to grow in when I got married, but growth in the manner of accepting my circumstances and respecting myself enough to stop subjecting myself to treatment that makes me feel like I'm not good enough, like if I just did or said the right thing I could make everything better even though I know I've tried to do and say everything I could think of that describes how I feel and who I am. Leaving would be giving myself permission to believe that I deserve to be loved in spite of my mistake. Finding love is not on my agenda, but living without someone who purposely withholds it from me *is* on my agenda.
Leaving is not what I want, but neither is the situation I have and I'm just not buying that I can change it all around if I do or say the right things....H has got to meet me in the middle and it seems like if he really wanted this M, he would be doing just that.
At some point, you have to give yourself permission to stop the madness don't you?

At some point, you have to give yourself permission to stop the madness don't you?

- Simply. Yes.

Heather I think your H obviously has a lot of self value issues going on in him. I think that's why he is determined to be the greatest dad ever. To feel like he has succeeded in getting one major thing right in his life.

The comments you just made about him being unmotivated in the past, sleeping in, staying up, getting drunk, wasting time on video games while you worked to become the successful family bread winner over time. And that tongue in cheek comment about you paying for vacations etc.

It's starting to appear to me your A also may be an convenient excuse for H to have a reason to rub your nose in the fact that you aren't so special after all, when compared to his accomplishments. And if he is in fact doing this I don't think it's on a conscious level.

I know a self-hater when I come across them as it's something I had to face in myself. This is why as I've said before you have to force yourself to remember it's not you. H's struggle IMO is within himself. Like an disoriented drowning victim, it seems he wants to grab you and drag you down with him so you won't swim away and leave him to sink. What is his LL? I might start with WOA as a way of throwing him an life ring to start feeling better about himself and your R--especially since he's struggling with the further blow to his ego from your A.

This stopping the madness. This is why I've said before too that you might try to plow through his nastiness with a totally cool head.

And hold his feet to the flames. Demand with firmness and loving kindness that H start offering concrete solutions and steps to be taken for the both of you to heal your R. I don't know what more you can do on your end in this regard that you haven't already done. Ask him to lead the way out as the head of your family and a great dad; a dad who wants his R to be a great example for your kids.

blackfoot:

2) the quitting my job and moving back to CA was not really P/A. It was a very multifacted decision that made me crazy, but it was really just very assertive
for my own needs.

- And a very hard lesson to learn. One that I have learned as well. What lesson?

To never ever ever put yourself in a position where your direction in life is destabilized by others. If you have an fantastic job? Then OM and x need to be the ones vacating the area if they've arrived at the locale at the same time as you. I know why you left and it's understandable. Just unfortunate you left yourself wide open due to OP.

In my case, I did not build my life around self-preservation first and leaving self open to others second. Result? My belongings are stored in 3 states and my business has suffered from all the mail forwarding and phone number changes. I can blame only myself for fcuking myself on this one.

Both of us now understand that in any future R we need to be sure we are so solid in our own life direction that if/when OP decide to wreck everything it will not destabilize our ability to maintain the key things that are important for self advancement/growth/progress with or without an SO.

-Stigmata-

I think when we are too critical of ourselves, we assume that everyone else is just as critical of us. We create pressure on ourselves, but perceive it as coming from others.

Interesting, but not what I do. What OP think of me is pretty irrelevant to me. The pressure I put on myself far outweighs what anyone else would think of doing, or I would allow for that matter.

He says I hated him for years... He was just in some other plane, always.
I cant remember seeing you saying anything positive or saying anything that gives a hint that you have any type of respect for your H. This is curious to me, because I dont think its a honest or accurate protrayal because of some other things I see you doing.

Oh, and he already tried to kick me out once. I came back
Here it is. your solutions and what you need to do all wrapped up in this one sentance. I remember seeing this way back when you talked about returning home and thinking, its that easy, why doesnt she see it.

I won't do what it will take.....the things that H is claiming is proof of my lack of commitment is crap
Your translating me again. Thats not what I said. not one of the thing you mentioned that you are not willing to do, was suggested by me. Or Mrs. Nops, or Cobra, or Stig, or anyone else. You are making this more then I said. Why are you doing that, with me, again?

Heather. here is my opinion on the bed. go sleep in it. if he asks you what you are doing. tell him. we are married I am sleeping with my H. IF you think I am still or have been unfaithful, then D me or tell me you want a seperation.

I dont think he will get physical again. If I am wrong, just flatly say, DO not put your hands on me in anger. If he does, go file for D the next day. Dont threaten, just do it.

I think if you know that you deserve to sleep in your bed, he will agree with you. It will salve him on some level that you know you have the right to do so. That is my feeling on your H. I see the convos you have related to us, and that is what his manspeak says to me.

Hey Heather, just stopping in to give you a pat on the back. Hang in there girl. B

What is his LL? I might start with WOA as a way of throwing him an life ring to start feeling better about himself and your R--especially since he's struggling with the further blow to his ego from your A.

You're probably right on, WOA is as close as I can come to identifying his LL. I've been having an internal dialogue since I read this. One part of me says "Try to think of nice things to say..." the other part of me says "It doesn't matter, it is too late". I did compliment him on the gift he picked out for nephew. It was the only thing I could think of! It's fairly difficult to want to stroke someone's ego who so throroughly makes you feel like crap.

Ask him to lead the way out as the head of your family and a great dad; a dad who wants his R to be a great example for your kids.

He insists that the 'ball is in my court'. He says my attitude is the problem. He will not take any responsibility.

I cant remember seeing you saying anything positive or saying anything that gives a hint that you have any type of respect for your H. This is curious to me, because I dont think its a honest or accurate protrayal because of some other things I see you doing.


Yeah, you're right. If I try to pick out things that I respect about him, I always qualify it with a 'yeah but'. Like I think he's a good Dad. Yeah but, a good Dad would not have done some of the things he's done with keeping the kids away from me and trying to shut me out.

However, I still want his approval. He judges people very harshly and I think I've said in the past that having his approval comforted me in many ways because I haven't always behaved like such a great person, i.e. with the one night stands I had in high school. I somehow felt like his acceptance cleansed me.
It's funny because he judges others so harshly, but yet seems to have a double standard for himself. I guess that's why I don't respect him (he doesn't live up to his own standards) but I still try to.

Your translating me again. Thats not what I said. not one of the thing you mentioned that you are not willing to do, was suggested by me. Or Mrs. Nops, or Cobra, or Stig, or anyone else. You are making this more then I said. Why are you doing that, with me, again?


I wasn't translating you, I was referring to what my H has specifically told me he has a problem with. Those are the things *he* says are examples of my unwillingness to do what it takes. If I ever want H to acknowledge that I've changed enough to warrant being his wife again, then I'm going to have to be able to show him that I've changed in the ways *he* has asked, not that I followed the recommendations of the DB BB. That is why I think it's hopeless Blackfoot. I'm not willing to do what he says it will take.

Heather. here is my opinion on the bed. go sleep in it. if he asks you what you are doing. tell him. we are married I am sleeping with my H.

This has pros and cons. I almost did this a while back and then decided not to. Let me list out what I see as possible pros:
Perhpas he will not try to convince me to sleep elsewhere either by physical force or emotional force.
Perhaps he will even sleep in the bed with me, in which case I would get to sleep with my kids at night when the crawl in with Daddy instead of feeling like an outsider who's been outcast.
Perhaps eventually H would get over resenting me for one-upping his 'authority' on the matter. If this occurred we could probably re-establish a physical relationship.

Cons:
That none of the above will occur.
That even if all of the above occur, it will be like so many other things in our past, we don't address the real issue and just keep moving forward hoping that the underlying issue will go away or won't be repeated in the future.
Once again, H does not 'choose me'. I force my way back, much like I did when he tried to kick me out.
He may sleep elsewhere, in which case I've won the battle of my self respect, but possibly lost the war. H told me last time that if I pushed the issue, he would never sleep in the same bed as me again, period.

With all that being said, I am still considering it as a last resort option before separation.


Thanks for checking in on me Mel!!

Hey, Heather!

I apologize if you mentioned this and I missed it, but how'd your karate testing go?

Since I don't have a better place to do it, here's an update on me...on May 22nd, I helped some guys she hired move Steff out and into a townhouse she's leasing. *What* a relief. I've much calmer and more stable ever since. We're getting along very well for the most part with semi-regular flare ups to keep things interesting. The week she moved out we saw each other almost every day. I spent a couple of evenings putting together beds for the boys, we went to a band concert for S13, she invited me over to swim in her complex's pool and again for grilling out on Memorial Day. We're working custody like we did during our "in-house" separation; she has them MT, I have WTh and we alternate weekends. I'm still in the house and it seems likely I'll be able to swing it financially. I'm paying a pretty good chunk of child support this summer but there'll be a noticeable reduction when she starts working next fall. Thru mediation we've come up with a separation agreement and once the mediator finally gets around to typing it up we'll be able to file and should be officially divorced within about 4 weeks of filing.

She's still seeing Jonathon but they were "on a break" around the time she moved out. She's told me she doesn't plan on ever getting remarried and that long distance relationships (he's living in Baltimore) are the way to go because you get to live your own life most of the time. All of which represents a significant attitude shift from back when they were soulmates. I'm dating some, but my desire to be in a relationship took a precipitous dive when it became clear Steff was actually going to get moved out and my options in life were going to be wide open. Interesting how that worked.

I have to say I don't miss her; what that means is beyond my ability to determine. Did I never really love her? Did I just get used to not counting on her for anything? I dunno. But for the most my life is much better now. There has been the occasional heart breaking moment, like when Steff and S9 were talking in another room and I heard him say, "...if were were a real family..." After a lengthy pause she responded well. It would have been good to have been a high functioning family unit for the sake the lads, but what we are now is light years better than what we were. Oh, and S13, who's wanted a puppy since shortly after our dog died four years ago, got his wish Saturday. Now I have 50% custody of a 9 week old dog, which is a very weird thing to say but still kinda cool.

This forum has been interesting to peruse. Being the LBS of an unfaithful spouse is a soul crinkling experience but at least we get to pick up the pieces, grow from the experience and take a fresh stab at life. So many people here are giving an amazing effort to change their outlooks and approaches in hopes of opening up an uncooperative spouse, often with minimal positive feedback. It's humbling and gives me more appreciation for what Steff went thru, since being married to me wasn't much more of a bargain than being married to your H is, as we've previously discussed.

Having said that, my participation in this board has naturally been coming to a close for quite some time and with where I am in life it's really time to move on. My mind tends to occupy itself with the emotions of others even when I'm not involved in their thread and I need my concentration back in my real life, especially now that it's a fairly pleasant place to be. I imagine I'll swing by from time to time and check in on you and Joe and a few other folks (mostly in Surviving) but I don't plan on having much to say.

All of which means this will pretty much be my parting shot: I'd hate to see you divorced but I'm not a great fan of your marriage, either. You've put a tremendous amount of effort and emotional energy into this, you've grown a lot and you've earned a happy family. As is obvious from looking around these boards, however, we don't always get what we deserve. Be wary of people who can determine exactly what you need to do or who know what your H is really thinking based on the content of internet posts. There are lots of good suggestions and concepts around here, but you don't have to wait until you're perfect before you can feel you've earned your way out of your marriage. We've always got to try and improve as people but being with someone who can only love us when we're behaving perfectly isn't a winning concept. I've been out of good advice for you for a long time, so let me leave you with the obvious...no matter what you decide, married, separated, divorced or indifferent, make sure you're always getting healthier. Don't get stuck in something that restricts your growth and don't wait forever for circumstances to improve. You have a lot to offer your husband, your kids, your community and yourself. Keep getting better and moving forward. You're smart; you're not crazy or lost or selfish or weak. Trust yourself.


P.S. I took a little trip down memory lane and there on the first page of my very first thread was "heatherg". Thanks. I owe you and a handful of others an awful lot.