Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Am I Creating a SSM Part V

Heather,

What your H is refusing to understand is that this isn't just up to YOU to fix.

He has to take responsibility for his part in the problems that exist/ed in your M too (prior to the A and after)...and work on fixing those things. What he's doing though is expecting you to do some magical thing that will somehow suddenly fix everything in his eyes....yet he refuses to give you that one kernal of inisght as to what that one thing might be.

Yes...you had an A, take responsibility for that (I know you have), show your remorse, and do what you can now to fix that...I know you are trying. BUT if he doesn't take responsibility for his contributions to the state of the problems....and work on those things....you two will continue the dance you are in now.

At some point YOU can only do so much my friend.

His lying and and double standards don't cut it either. I don't care if he feels you have to earn back his trust or not....HE isn't allowed to lie etc. either.

I hate to say it but at what point do you cut bait?

GEL

Heather.

Not a very good turn of events I'd say.

You are driving yourself crazy. You cannot carry the R load for 2 people and just trying is wiping you out emotionally.

How has it reached this point? Because you allow H to get away and slip out of the ropes when you tie him down on his behavior.

This:

and I said 'you don't give a [censored], is that what you're saying?'
He never asnwered that directly I realize now.

- I have noticed this more than once in your posts about your exchanges. MAKE him answer you or stand there until you are blue in the face...not with anger but with firm conviction and deadly seriousness.

He is double-talking you in addition to enjoying his own preconceived double standards. Trying to hold to your truths while H lies to your face is seriously tilting your R out of balance and straight toward disaster. It needs to come to a stop...all of this BS game playing, nastiness, and dancing around the real fundamental issues of any R as it pertains to raising a family in an environment of love.

His lies tell me he doesn't have much respect for your opinion...like your A has given him an Monopoly "Get Out of Jail Free" card that he totes around in his wallet, along with his one dollar bills.

I've said it many many times before. Stop jumping through H's constantly changing hoops; it's a no-win situation like trying to fill a bucket with water that has an sizeable hole in the bottom.

Shift shift shift the load from your back onto H. Face him and demand that he tell you what he wants out of both of your futures because the way he's acting he's wasting both of your lives, which could be better spent on more fulfilling things. No anger. Just emotionally vulnerable open and direct conversations.

And if he retorts with a smarta$$ed comment?

"ENOUGH. Stop it right now. If you want to be nasty to me, fine, then do it all you want after we have this discussion. I expect the both of us to act like frigging adults for 15 minutes. It's not funny. It's not going to be discussed later or whenever you feel like it. You are going to tell me whether you want to be in this R or not and, if so, your ideas on how we can make it better. I won't accept 'I don't know etc..."

As Karen and GEL said...you have to decide if the months ticking by in your life is worth feeling miserable being stuck in the mud. I don't know how it will come but your R is going to need unstuck; it's inevitable it will happen anyway. But it is up to you both to control how that happens, whether constructively or through a really bad fallout/outcome.

-Stigmata-

PS. BS to H. All Ms know whether they've been to a strip club in the past 2 years. The only ones who don't remember are the ones who go so often they don't remember exact dates. In fact, I still remember one I went to one back in 99 and I am not the clubber type ... too many messed up Fs there for me to contribute to it.

Demand honesty. An R without truth is not an R as I have found out personally and painfully. It's one person using carte blanche behavior to waste the other partner's life. Unacceptable. Period.

Heather,

I think it is time to get brutally honest with yourself (not that others, including myself haven’t done so already). Completely forget about your H. If you read back through your many posts, I think you will see two common themes: 1) how much you hate your H and the anger you have over what he has “done” to you, and 2) how much you are obsessed with him, hang on for dear life, cannot leave him, are deeply hurt by him, and basically how much you are still in love with him. You are pulling yourself in both directions but you cannot bring yourself to admit this.

Although your H has issues of his own (and probably can’t see how he is doing the exact same things that you are), I think he senses within you both of these opposing emotions. Before you start denying how much you don’t care for your H, just ask yourself how much you think about other people you’ve know who you truly hate. If like me, you don’t give them a second thought, and probably don’t want to take up any energy wasting your time even thinking about them, right?

So how can it be that you spend so much time of every waking day obsessing over your H who you claim to hate so much? I don’t buy the excuse that you stay only for your kids. If that were true, you could physically be in the same place you are now, but mentally you wouldn’t think about him any more than your old enemies. Staying for the kids is a smoke screen and you know it. You’ve left them before and seem quite accepting of having to leave them again (as opposed to my wife who would fight to her last breath to stay with our kids).

So cut to the chase and own up to the fact that you still deeply love your husband, that you are terrified of being without him, and that in spite of all the machinations you go through to prove to yourself how independent you are, you are still very much enmeshed and dependent on him. While that is not the healthiest place to be, it is far better to accept your current weaknesses than keep deluding yourself. All of your vents are just meant to convince yourself that you don’t need him.

Right know you are not healthy, functional, or differentiated enough to stand on your own two feet. That is OK. But own up to it and stop fooling yourself. Then stop trying to fool your husband. He doesn’t buy it any more than I do. Be honest with yourself. Face your fears and admit to yourself that you are scared of being alone and want the security that comes from depending on your H. Then tell the same thing to your H. It is not a sign of weakness to be true to yourself and tell others about that.

If you truly don’t love him anymore, then come to terms with that and start acting that way. But doing what you can to pull him toward you just so you can smack him is not going to move you forward. Over two years of that sort of action should be getting the futility of across to you by now. If you don’t love him, stop obsessing over him. That will stop any feelings you have of him holding power over you - you just don’t care anymore and see not point in arguing with him over anything.

I don’t know for sure how you really feel, but I don’t think you do either. You are getting your emotions all mixed up and cannot tell one from the other anymore. You seem to be to have the following internal battles going on simultaneously:

1) Frustration with yourself over your poor boundaries versus anger toward him for his abusive behavior
2) Anger toward your parents for abandoning you versus anger toward him for not giving you the security and comfort you feel you need and deserve
3) Anger over your low self esteem and need for validation from others versus your reluctance to admit this weakness to yourself, keeping the focus of your problems on others, not yourself, and locking you into victim mentality
4) Jealousy and resentment of others for the good relationship they have, fueling your sense of entitlement versus acknowledging the fears and issues that prevent you from accepting these very things when offered to you
5) Anger toward your parents and the childhood shame they caused you versus frustration with your H that he is recreating this sense of shame (and not recognizing your hurts and coming to comfort you as you wanted your parents to).

I see other issues, but these are enough. You are weaving such a web of deception that you cannot see where you started your part of the problems versus where your H started his part. That keeps you from seeing where you are going or where you want to go. This type of self deception is the basis of bigger problems further down the line. Don’t turn yourself into a self hating narcissist. Staying on the fence, stuck in limbo, will drive you mad. Be true to yourself. Throw in the towel and give up the self deception. Only then is there any chance of him stopping his own delusions, allowing you two to start moving forward.

Heather,

Quote:

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But I can't change who H is and I can't accept him the way he is either. No amount of Dbing will do either of those things for me.

---

I agree with the first. You can't change H.

But you can accept him as he is. It's a question of whether you will do that. You know a lot of reasons why you might, and a lot of reasons why you might not.

I hope you're still getting some IC for yourself. You have a lot of conflicting influences right now.

Again I wish you some peace,

Joe

No I cannot sleep despite putting away a bottle of Shiraz. Perhaps more on that after I receive counsel from some friends.

If you'd like to share here, please feel free. I'd love to try to help any way I can and I'm sure others feel the same. You've been a healing source for me and I appreciate it very much. Your words always really speak to me, I feel a lot of genuineness from your posts and that always soothes me. So please, any way I can return the favor....or at least try

Too other-directed. Essentially your boundary is for you and for you alone regardless of how OP respond to them.

I'd like to talk about this statement further....my sense is that everyone here entirely agrees with that statement and Blackfoot has been telling me all along that my boundaries are crap.
Are boundaries not intended to curb some bad behavior from another person? My understanding is, yes they are. So, by setting a boundary, we are telling another person 'I will not tolerate this from you'. Is that controlling? My guess is that most people here would say no it isn't, even though, at the very essence, you are trying to control the other person's behavior by setting a boundary. Ok, so let's talk about Schnarch for a minute. I've mentioned this before, but never got it all out to the point of a full discussion and it's still bothering me. In PM, there was a couple (can't remember names, can look it up later if anyone cares) where the wife made a boundary that she was no longer going to have sex when she felt her H was not intimately 'there'. So she would just stop. Get up and leave. That was her boundary. Then the responsibility was on her H to decide to a) be intimate in the way his W needed or b) never have sex again.

[ I'm editing this to add an afterthought. At this point, it seems that if the wife waiting for the H to initiate sex again, she would be creating a power struggle. She stopped the sex, I would think she would have to take responsibility to initiate next time, particularly if it seems her H is not going to. Ok, so she initiates again....is that pressure? It certainly seems so. Because if he doesn't comply, she will stop again. Then she initiates the next time and the cycle goes on. In my case, I ask to sleep back in my bed and Blackfoot tells me that I'm controlling. Is the wife controlling here as well? She's trying to get what she wants from her H isn't she? ]

Ok, now her boundary was relating to intimacy. Without intimacy, she wanted no sex. To choose option b, what is her H really telling her? I see this situation as very similar to mine. It appears that my H has chose option b, at least until I can prove something. It appears he is respecting my boundary, but what he is really doing is turning it back on me. Telling me that it is entirely possible to have what I want if I would only do XXX. But XXX is undefined. Now, in Schnarch, it didn't work that way. Her H came around in a relatively short amount of time. Had her H not done so, then I guess the responsibility is back on her to decide if she is ok with never having sex again. Duh! If her initial problem was not enough intimacy during sex, does no sex at all seem like a viable option? What person who has already shown themself to be a sexual being is truly ok with never having sex again, particularly if lack of intimacy was the problem from the beginning? It seems that to choose option b, the partner would really be telling you to go fly a kite. I suppose that is respecting a boundary, but the M has failed at that point, wouldn't you say?

I think my problem is that I'm not respecting my *own* boundaries. H has told me to go fly a kite and I can't seem to get my sh!t together to do it, apparently I'm waiting for the wind to be just right....yeah, that's it.

Hey GF Have you read "Boundaries"? There are two books with that name. One is by Dr. Henry Cloud and the other is by Anne Katherine. Both are good and explain what boundaries are, why we need them, how to enforce them, etc. Has helped me much!

Hang in there. I know you are frustrated right now and I just submit that you should continue trust yourself. I do agree that you are continuing to hold onto anger and pushing your H away. I just want you to know that is normal behavior in disrespectful and abusive circumstances, so please don't beat yourself up about it. If you don't protect Heather, who will? After years of the dysfunctional "dance" with XH, I've come to see that we both contributed, but in the end, the "blame" didnt matter. What determined the outcome was that BOTH of us needed to stop the dance, but both were not willing to do that. I couldnt have dropped my anger and kissed his butt until the end of time and it would have continued... but I would have been destroyed in the end. Sometimes no matter what we change, others do not respond in a way that moves the R forward to a good place.

Huggggs!

Sheila

Hey Sheila!! Thanks for suggesting those books....I told myself that I was done with the 'self help' books for a while, but I am clearly struggling with the concept of boundaries and I will pick up either one or both of those books.

What determined the outcome was that BOTH of us needed to stop the dance, but both were not willing to do that.

That's so true. Certain things have to be my way at this point, thus my boundaries. No one can say that I haven't tolerated his way for a really long time and I'm sick of it. I see the continuation of these things as 'keeping up the dance'. But it DOES take both people. I've tried to stop and I think he's tried to stop, and we've actually managed to a certain degree. But he refuses to get past a certain point that would require a real commitment on his behalf. He says I've never recommited, but I've tried. I won't commit forever if he eventually doesn't get on the bandwagon, kwim?

I've made a commitment to stay for another year. I know I need to make the most of that year if I'm gonna stay. Otherwise, I might as well just leave now. I know I need to get us back to the point where he has previously refused to cross....and try to keep us there for the entire year. I have to be strong and patient and tough and do it even though I don't want to do the things I'm gonna have to do. And we've gotten so far apart, I don't even know how long it will take to get us back to that point again....we used to be able to recover fairly quickly, but certain things now repel me like the opposite end of a magnet and it's going to be really, really hard. I don't even know how to start. Small gestures each day I guess. A simple phone call just to say hi and then build from there. My only doubt at this point when it comes to how hard I've tried is that I haven't been patient and consistent enough. If I can do this for a full year and he still refuses to make progress, then I can have a clean conscience that this is no longer about my issues holding us back. I struggle soooo much because he doesn't deserve it. He has slammed the door so many freakin times in my face that it isn't funny....but I deserve it and my kids deserve it and so, just like Anna used to say....."H you can KMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Oops, that's probably not the best way to start is it?

How are things going with you? Are you guys still thinking about going to counseling together at some point?

Stigmata, I've read over your first post a hundred times already. So much in it just really hits home with me. My love is very weak, overall I would say that *I* am pretty weak. Either that or I'm a stubborn a@@, either way, it's not very attractive.

From your posts he never is the one who threatens to leve or at least if he does it is minimal compared with you. You've gone to the well ten times too many on your "threats" and he disrespects you for it as any person would.

H has threatened me with divorce on a few occasions. First when I revealed the A, duh, I understand that. Second on an occasion where he and I went out with my siblings and mid-evening, they decided to go to the bar where I first kissed OM and I intended to go along (H refused to go and had the cab drop him off at home)....it wasn't like OM was going to be there, but of course I see now that I should have used this opportunity to show him his feelings mattered. He threatened divorce on the phone, I stopped the cab, got out and walked home (it was just a few blocks). Third time, we were at my parents' house in Michigan and I was giong to go out with an old friend of mine, female of course, but I told H I was going instead of asking and making sure he would come (I'm really not 'allowed' to go out without him anymore). He was absolutely livid that I intended to go and called me names, said we were cutting our trip short and leaving in the morning, he got into a spat with my father, it was a mess. I didn't go and apologized to him for not asking, etc. Fourth time was when I stayed at the hotel. He told me I was 'throwing the M away'. Maybe he wasn't threatening divorce that time, I don't know.

Notice that he gets really bent out of shape whenever I mention going out when he is not there. I understand this of course to a certain extent. It has been taken way too far and would have carried over into other aspects of my life too if I would have let it (i.e. karate). It is not that often that going out has even come up because I do not make plans to go out anymore and really haven't since the A was revealed. The night out with my siblings, H was supposed to be there all night, but it turned crazy from the minute we got there, literally. The time with my old high school female friend...I can't even remember what we were doing, going to dinner or a bar or a bar/restaurant or if plans had even been made that far. He just flipped his lid.

Anyway, the point is that he has mentioned divorce on a couple of different occasions when he has felt extremely threatened.
I have not made constant threats, as in 'I am going to file'. I tend to make a lot of references along the lines of 'we can't go on like this forever' or 'we have to live together and get along at least for the time being' or 'we can't buy a house together right now because things are too uncertain'. The inference is always there. That's how it is in my head and I guess it comes out in what I do and say.

The stuff you wrote on my power and not desolving into anger was all more helpful than you know. It's not stuff that on some level, I haven't been told or read...it's not that I don't understand. I just find it very motivational and inspirational to see it written from someone who knows my circumstances.

Another year, huh? Not so long, but a long time to suffer your H's disrespect. Setting and enforcing your boundaries should help with that. I just hope your H wakes up over the next year!!!

We're doing fine. XH and I have decided not to seek counseling together, although we both see the same IC. He has been diagnosed with OCPD and is getting treated for that. After my first session, it became clear to me that I need to move on from my R with XH and claim my life. One of the products of OCPD is a need to control and my XH exhibited such passive control (I allowed it!) over my life that I can't see myself going back there and ever being happy. The C said we are co-dependent and toxic and I agree. She pointed out that the emotions and bonds between us have been strong, but not romantic/partner love. I thought of this BB as we talked.. she referred to us playing out our childhoods in our R. So that's it. We're slowly moving apart and on. No bad feelings really, just regret that we couldnt make it work for the kids. The kids are doing fine though and I'm MUCH more happy and relaxed. If I had known that they would be OK and that I could feel this free, strong and healthy, I wouldnt have waited so long to stop the madness. Thanks for asking!

Sheila

my sense is that everyone here entirely agrees with that statement and Blackfoot has been telling me all along that my boundaries are crap.



I dont think your boundary on karate is crap. I dont think you saying to H, when he is loud, abusive, flips his lid,etc <calmly> 'dont speak to me like that' 'Ill speak to you when we are both calmer'. would be crap either. flipping in return is lack of control.(self) remember thats all we have.

I do think the no sex boundary is your 'right'. Its not crap because you have stuck to it. I do think you are entitled to anything you want. so in proper DBing, how has this 180 worked for your M? all the rest of the crap ones, the hotel, the airport/truck, the cab, are in the past. They were crap not because of what they were so much, but because they were fake, they no longer exist, and done out of reactivity. <shrug> You have to stop YOURSELF from going to the past. you can only deposit LU from this moment forward.
here is a goal
eliminate yes...but. dont think it dont say it. If your H brings up something you did, nod your head. yes I made a mistake. Im sorry it hurt you. I can only work on now. the quicker it has no effect on you the quicker it will go away. remember the LRS?

I know its hard.
When I decided to go get x, (yes, I ultimately failed because of failing at the above) I did what works. I didnt worry about if she loved me. I knew she did. I couldve analyzed her actions and said nopt she doesnt. Not helpful. My thoughts/action are the only thing under my control. I didnt worry about what she was doing with OM. Was I entitled in a marriage to say, I wont see you or speak to you while you are involved with another man. Yes. Where would that boundary have gotten me? I didnt worry about the words of uncertainty coming out of her mouth, what she thought, the tests, the fights, whether it was fair, what she had to prove to me, if she made me happy or feel good....any of it. I did what works. (memory... during the second seperation, I let her contact me for one week, she started talking about coming back ...if then... how would I forgive her... sex.. if I was mad about a bj, i was gonna be really mad.... one of the few times I didnt say --whatever you want... I said dont worry about sex, I cant imagine wanting to have sex with you -- now how did that make her feel? )

here is a thread by a 'success story' This is a woman who did... what works.... while being in the middle of an extremely disrespectful and abusive situation. long wonderful story
I have to say, I could never have done what she did. but the point of it is she did ....what works. no yes buts, no if thens, no expectations. I dont think anyone here disagres that an A is disrespecful and abusive behavior. very few people are saying D your SO to all the people on the I/A/J board. They are all trying to figure out what works. You cant sleep in your bed, so F'ing what. would you rather be sharing it with another women? like the OW in the I/A/J boards whos H's have been having A's for 2, 3 years? would that be less disrespctful?