It sounds to me like you are on the verge of an 'awakening.' I am not a big fan of religion, AT ALL, as a matter of fact, I darn near reject it outright... though I have studied many.
I'm a big believer in God, though (my version of Her, I guess)... and spiritualism. Anyway... take a trip through this web site sometime... I think it might be up your alley.
As for the other stuff... good for you for realizing that the "time" it takes to recover and grow is critical. We are in such an instant world anymore that if, god forbid, it takes you years, instead of months, you are somehow less of a human.
And though I appreciate Cobra's glowing words of praise... I will tell you... I have been on MY road quite some time. I spent 12 years in counseling during my 16 year marriage, had kids, did the job thing, did serious spiritual exploration myself (still do), went through a couple of serious car accidents, got divorced... in all this I hope you see that my road was not quick, nor was it painless. :-)
The great thing about all of it is, you WILL get it... in your own time, in your own way, as long as you keep looking. And that doesn't mean you can't rest along the way... you do need breaks, like you said.
But you are one smart cookie. Try to stay out of self-pity mode (we call that sitting in the Center of the Universe Chair... quite a comfy chair, that one)... try not to take life and your M so seriously that you stop laughing, and continue to follow that gut instinct you have... that intuition you feel...
I'm going to stay out of the fray between you and Cobra, but I wanted to ask a couple questions. First, are you sleeping in your marriage bed since H is out of town? (I sure hope so). Second, he's been out of town for a month? Is this business related? Ever wonder what he does when he's gone? Do you have civil phone conversations with him?
I'm thinking like Nopkins here, so bear with me for a second. What would happen if you found out that he was having an A? Would it "even the score" or would it end the M? I'm sorry to go down this road, but when I read that he'd been out of town for a month, my mind just took off.
Hope you get a chance to answer some of the questions. Consider me one of the guys that drops in with a "general sense of caring."
Glad you are getting some space. I use to travel for work myself, I saw x in person 2 times in three months once. Last time I did that.
I like that you realize these things take time too. One thing I have noticed is that Stig and I are on almost the same emotional schedule, he is just a few months behind, as his R failure, was too. These things are probably not all that unique, even when we understand what it going on cerebrally, that doesnt mean are emotions are letting us feel it any faster. Its been a very very very hard thing for me to accept.
But I still get the same theme from you, that you are a victim and until your H decides to step up to the plate, there is little you can do to salvage the marriage.
Well, I think I'm past the point of feeling like *I* am a victim (although those feelings might return along with H), but more that our M is the victim of two people who can't get their sh!t together. I'm trying and I can sometimes see where H is trying too. But I can't see his efforts as often as I need to in order to assure me that the M will ultimately survive. And I can't take full responsibility for that. That's all I'm saying.
It may also be because I and so many others can see how this stubbornness holds you back and keeps you pitted in a power struggle with your H.
Agreed. We are two strong personalities trying to live under the same roof. I wasn't always a strong personality, so I often wonder if H would choose me again. It is a fruitless thought I know, and one that has unnecessarily bothered me from time to time because it fits so nicely in the puzzle along with the other things that have bothered me (i.e. the porn and not being number one in H's life). I have to let go of those thoughts. But you're right Cobra. I'm often too stubborn for my own good. I feel smothered when H is home, his presence is just so big and he reigns over everything....his night owl habits and the way he insists on doing things his way even when I disagree (S5's bedtime and the associated routine, letting the kids sleep with him, leaving lights on in the house for them..on and on. My point is that when I am alone, I can feel me. When he is home, I get lost and I struggle to feel my own presence in our home and the power struggles ensue.
Letting the anger and resentment subside allows you to see things more objectively, lets you re-center your balance. You can trust your world and therefore yourself.
Why do I find this so much easier when H is out of the picture? That makes such a case for separation if I let it.....I've been trying to steer completely away from thoughts of separation however, so I don't really want to go there. I have made some important steps in 'showing H I am committed'. I have other reasons for making the gestures, but they are genuine in that regard and the actions may speak to H on a R level. We'll see. Again, I can make those gestures when he is gone because I don't feel so smothered, I feel like the choices are mine.
Perhaps what you are sensing and longing for is not religion per se, but the comfort and security of having faith, of removing that dread of the future.
This could be. I think though that I need to explore relition in order to decide what feels right to me. I need rituals, something spiritual where I can explore those thoughts and listen. Things that feed my soul, keep me grounded and help me feel whole. I think I feel especially empty in that regard right now because I am running on full capacity. With H gone, I take care of everything and rarely have a moment for my own thoughts. Even when I go to karate on Friday nights, the kids are running about and making noise and I hear them and am distracted by it. Being a 'single Mom' is not easy When H returns, I will be able to hear myself think again hopefully or at least will have the freedom to go for a walk alone if I choose where I can be by myself. I just need to think heavily on this area of my life, I feel something pulling me, although that makes it sound weirder than it is.
I am also thinking more and more that he is the pursuer and you are the avoider in your marriage (or at least these are your current roles). He is just so angry and dysfunctional that he has resorted to power plays to keep you engaged with him. He has given up chasing you since you seem to run away, so he has tried other tactics and has found that your running is really a bluff and what you really want is him. Now he has you and you’ve run out of options.
This is really interesting Cobra. I've always pegged myself as the pursuer and H as the avoider. I haven't thought through this well enough yet to decide if your suggestion could in fact be closer to the truth. I'll think about it.
If you are the avoider (and he seems to be saying this very thing) then pursuing him should be the right course of action.
This definitely gets positive reactions from H, but I've always attributed it to different reasons than me being the avoider. I thought it was because it helped rebuild the trust, it helped show H that I committed to him and making the M work. It could be all of the above and probably is, but my point is that I never considered the pursuer and avoider dynamic in this light. Interesting.
There is still something there for you to work through. If there wasn’t our comments wouldn’t bother you.
There is lots for me to work through, no doubt. Sometimes I don't *feel* like I am much further along that when I started this journey. But it is possible for comments to bother me not because they harbor the hidden truths of my subconcious but because the comments are disrespectful. I can tell the difference between something that could be true although I may not be ready to admit it and something that is...well, something else.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Corri, ThankS so much for that link. I haven't had time to look at it yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Thanks also for your words of encouragement. It helps to hear that it takes a long time for others too. I have seen it posted where certain people are singled out for still struggling with the same issues for longer than that particular poster apparently thinks it should take. I love your signature. You don't see what you don't see. Until you do. That is so absolutely true and there isn't anything wrong with that as long as you are open to seeing the answers, they will eventually come just like you said.
Hairdog, First, are you sleeping in your marriage bed since H is out of town?
No, I'm not. I have accepted that it's not my bed anymore. I hate it, I think it's wrong, but I very begrudgingly accept it.
Second, he's been out of town for a month? Is this business related? Ever wonder what he does when he's gone? Do you have civil phone conversations with him?
Yes, it's business related and not at all uncommon. He can be gone for long periods of time or short periods of time, it just depends. Yes, I sometimes wonder what he does when he's gone. Surfs porn without a doubt. We've had sex maybe four times this year, which he doesn't seem all that bent out of shape about. There was a recent situation, I can't remember if I even posted it, where it became evident to me that he was not planning on telling me that he had 'gone out' the night before. An argument ensued that left me feeling horrible. I just let it blow over and went on like the discussion never took place. But he knows I know he lies to me, or *has* lied to me on more than one occasion. It severely damages his credibility when he talks about 'rebuilding trust'.
What would happen if you found out that he was having an A? Would it "even the score" or would it end the M?
It completely depends on the circumstances surrounding it. If he let it go on for a while, all the time keeping me out of my bed, etc.....well I think it would be over. I excuse him for his behavior only because I understand how hurtful my actions were. If he were secretly doing the same, while punishing me....yeah, that'd be it. If he thought he was falling in love with someone else and was honest with me about it, a separation would certainly be warranted but not necessarily the end of the M. If he got involved in a situation similar to my betrayal it would even the score.
Consider me one of the guys that drops in with a "general sense of caring."
Thanks Hairdog, I appreciate it.
Blackfoot, I use to travel for work myself, I saw x in person 2 times in three months once. Last time I did that.
Well, if that were the case in my situation, it would go a long way to making me feel like I was a priority in my H's life. H has been gone for six months before. Not surpisingly, at least to me, when my A began H was gone for 7 months straight home only on the weekends (which he prioritized around the kids).
One thing I have noticed is that Stig and I are on almost the same emotional schedule, he is just a few months behind, as his R failure, was too.
I'm sure that's been helpful and reassuring to you, especially if you can really relate to him. It sort of makes you prepared for 'what's next'. I miss his posts.
These things are probably not all that unique, even when we understand what it going on cerebrally, that doesnt mean are emotions are letting us feel it any faster.
Agreed. Our hearts don't always fall into line with our brains as quickly as we'd like. But in the bigger picture, I like that about us
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I'm trying and I can sometimes see where H is trying too. But I can't see his efforts as often as I need to in order to assure me that the M will ultimately survive. And I can't take full responsibility for that. That's all I'm saying.
Just because you can’t see his efforts does not mean he isn’t trying. Only he knows what is going on in his head, but taking the position that he isn’t trying will sabotage any efforts he might be making, especially in the state you two are in. Do you see how this need to see his progress in order for you to progress is just your need for validation from him, that you are indirectly “checking in” with him to confirm where you are. Seeing his progress gives you comfort, right? That is fine and good once you are fully confident and differentiated, but for now, this is counterproductive to you. His progress, or lack thereof, should not even be a consideration for you right now.
I wasn't always a strong personality, so I often wonder if H would choose me again. It is a fruitless thought I know, and one that has unnecessarily bothered me from time to time because it fits so nicely in the puzzle along with the other things that have bothered me..
There you are! Do you see what you said? How can such a strong personality be bothered by such self conscious thoughts? Does a truly strong person stop to doubt whether s/he is attractive to others? Can you see that your “strong” personality is just the manifestation of the walls you have built up to protect the scared child within you? Nothing wrong with protecting yourself but don’t do it by erecting these false walls. Doing so and then believing in those walls can take you down a very self destructive road.
I feel smothered when H is home, his presence is just so big and he reigns over everything....his night owl habits and the way he insists on doing things his way even when I disagree (S5's bedtime and the associated routine, letting the kids sleep with him, leaving lights on in the house for them..on and on.
My wife is OCD and ADD and gets caught up in things, and half the time doesn’t realize when she is being imposing or loud. She also creates a lot of mess around the house, sometimes worse than the kids. It is hard to keep order with someone like this. This is where you need to establish strong boundaries. It does not require physical strength but the correct mental framework. I just saw Corri’s post about power. Go read it.
Heather, my wife is smaller than me physically, but I feel her presence is very large in the house too. I allow her to be imposing, though I now allow her to be much less imposing that she once was. This is not due to our size, or anything she does (she is just as scattered as she has always been), but due to my attitude and a different way of thinking. That changes my self confidence which in turn helps me to stand up to her better and hold to my boundaries.
Why do I find this so much easier when H is out of the picture? That makes such a case for separation if I let it.....I've been trying to steer completely away from thoughts of separation however, so I don't really want to go there. I have made some important steps in 'showing H I am committed'. I have other reasons for making the gestures, but they are genuine in that regard and the actions may speak to H on a R level. We'll see. Again, I can make those gestures when he is gone because I don't feel so smothered, I feel like the choices are mine.
Aren’t you asking, then answering your own question here? Isn’t it easier to let go of anger when you don’t have to seek validation and approval from others? When your H is gone, there is no one to reflect back onto you, so you must stand on your own feet. When he is there, you seek validation, he withholds, and you get angry. So stop seeking validation. Seems pretty simple, right?
I am also thinking more and more that he is the pursuer and you are the avoider in your marriage (or at least these are your current roles). He is just so angry and dysfunctional that he has resorted to power plays to keep you engaged with him. He has given up chasing you since you seem to run away, so he has tried other tactics and has found that your running is really a bluff and what you really want is him. Now he has you and you’ve run out of options.
This is really interesting Cobra. I've always pegged myself as the pursuer and H as the avoider. I haven't thought through this well enough yet to decide if your suggestion could in fact be closer to the truth. I'll think about it.
If you are the avoider (and he seems to be saying this very thing) then pursuing him should be the right course of action.
This definitely gets positive reactions from H, but I've always attributed it to different reasons than me being the avoider. I thought it was because it helped rebuild the trust, it helped show H that I committed to him and making the M work. It could be all of the above and probably is, but my point is that I never considered the pursuer and avoider dynamic in this light. Interesting.
Understand that the pursuer/avoider dynamic is just one particular aspect of control behavior. That is why it is destructive. You know you two control try to control. Now try to understand how you both go about that. This is just one aspect.
Also, in your statement is more of your holding on to the idea of the marriage as an anchor for you. You have come to learn that you should not depend on him to give you support (though you do seem to act otherwise at times) but I wonder if you haven’t transferred that need to the idea of your marriage, rather than him per se? Show your commitment to him and the marriage for YOUR sake, not his. Do not expect him to return that commitment. That is a resentment trap.
There is still something there for you to work through. If there wasn’t our comments wouldn’t bother you.
There is lots for me to work through, no doubt. Sometimes I don't *feel* like I am much further along that when I started this journey.
I know this feeling. I have recognized in me the trade off in the pain of “taking the punch” and accepting and admitting to my flaws versus the pain and frustration of staying stuck. As long as the first pain is greater than the second, I believe we all will stay stuck. When the marriage deteriorates so much that the pain of staying stuck is more than we can bear, the first option does not look so bad, and we reluctantly decide to swallow our medicine.
Once you do this a few times, “taking the punch” is not so bad. You realize you can take it and each time it is another notch under your belt, not unlike advancing through the belt ranks in the martial arts.
Just because you can’t see his efforts does not mean he isn’t trying.
I know. But in the long run, if I can't see it, it doesn't do much good, ya know?
Do you see how this need to see his progress in order for you to progress is just your need for validation from him, that you are indirectly “checking in” with him to confirm where you are.
Yes, I do this. You're probably right that is why I find it so much easier when he is gone~because he's not here to check in with, I have to make it on my own.
this is counterproductive to you.
You're right.
How can such a strong personality be bothered by such self conscious thoughts? Does a truly strong person stop to doubt whether s/he is attractive to others? Can you see that your “strong” personality is just the manifestation of the walls you have built up to protect the scared child within you? Nothing wrong with protecting yourself but don’t do it by erecting these false walls. Doing so and then believing in those walls can take you down a very self destructive road.
I see your point, but I think you read too much into what I said. I only meant that I have opinions now that I stand by whereas when H and I met, I truly didn't know myself, didn't know what I liked and what I didn't, had emotions I couldn't explain. So, when I said I have a strong personality, I meant in relation to who I used to be. My H has such strong opinions, sometimes there is hardly room for two opinions. But slowly, I have countered that and defended my own opinions. The struggle is that if we disagree, my opinion doesn't usually get very far, just causes a fight and results in resentment on my part.
I allow her to be imposing, though I now allow her to be much less imposing that she once was. This is not due to our size, or anything she does (she is just as scattered as she has always been), but due to my attitude and a different way of thinking.
So, for instance, when my H works out at 11:00pm and runs on the treadmill and blares his music, I should just change the way I think about it? I've tried to explain that it's disruptive to the household, at which point he tells me the kids don't have any problems sleeping, so I'm apparently the only one who has a problem with it....and he continues to do it. He won't work out earlier because it takes time away from the kids, the kids must be in bed before he will work out. So again Cobra, I hear what you are saying in theory....but I'm still left thinking, 'yeah, ok, but how do I not *allow* this to be imposing on my life'?
This is where you need to establish strong boundaries. It does not require physical strength but the correct mental framework. I just saw Corri’s post about power. Go read it.
Ok, maybe this will be an attempt to answer my above question. I will try to find the post you are referring to. Is it on her thread Girl Help?
When he is there, you seek validation, he withholds, and you get angry. So stop seeking validation. Seems pretty simple, right?
I have tried this to a certain extent but I usually wimp out because of my guilt. For instance, my best friend from college is having a bachelorette party tonight and she lives in Richmond, an hour and a half away from me. I'm almost grateful that H will not be back in time for me to go tonight because if the party were next weekend instead for instance, I would feel entirely within my rights to go. This girl is the best friend I've had since I moved to VA 11 years ago and this is her first marriage. But because of the A, H would probably throw an absolute fit if I wanted to go, especially becaue it would be overnight. So, I would either back off or not be able to handle his fit appropriately and end up feeling guilty for going. It's a no fcking win situation. Can you see where I'd just rather not deal it??? Just stay home and don't even bring it up. Because if he doesn't know about it, then I'm not giving up my power to him but yet I don't cause a fight either. This is the way I have trained myself to behave in light of his reactions and the fact that I am trying to make my M work after a huge betrayal. The betrayal makes all the certainties that I have gained about myself over the years become fuzzy again. So, would a differentiated cheater just not seek validation from H and go to the party because she has the right to go? I'm honestly asking your opinion in case you can't tell if I'm being rehtorical here.
I am also thinking more and more that he is the pursuer and you are the avoider in your marriage (or at least these are your current roles). He is just so angry and dysfunctional that he has resorted to power plays to keep you engaged with him. He has given up chasing you since you seem to run away, so he has tried other tactics and has found that your running is really a bluff and what you really want is him. Now he has you and you’ve run out of options.
I think we've both called each other's bluff on the topic of staying in the M. Our kids mean the world to us and we both know that, so D has become sort of an empty threat regardless of which of us uses it. I have been pretty good about limiting the amount of time I speak to him and the things I tell him. I used to tell him every little thing and call him several times a day when he was away. I don't do that anymore. So, I am trying to detach and make it real.
Show your commitment to him and the marriage for YOUR sake, not his.
That makes my mind draw a blank. I can see that some of you love your partners deeply and can probably understand what this simpe statement entails. I'm not saying I don't have love in my heart for my H, but this statement makes me stop dead in my tracks, like I don't know what to do with it.
You have come to learn that you should not depend on him to give you support (though you do seem to act otherwise at times) but I wonder if you haven’t transferred that need to the idea of your marriage, rather than him per se?
I can agree that this could be the case. I don't want to give myself to H, so I guess I feel if I can dedicate myself to the M, to the higher purpose, then I can retain my integrity.
When the marriage deteriorates so much that the pain of staying stuck is more than we can bear, the first option does not look so bad, and we reluctantly decide to swallow our medicine.
You're right. And this is how you know when you're ready for D too I think. When the M deteriorates to the point where all the unknowns are still more comforting than the thought of staying in the M. I think I've swallowed a few doses, but the M has gotten just comfortable enough that I can't bear the unkowns of leaving and how it would affect my R with my kids. Now we're stuck again because each of us knows the other will likely not leave. We have quite literally been to he!! in our M and if neither of us called it quits, then it's probably not gonna happen. We haven't quite made it back from he!! yet. I guess we took a detour
I think I need to focus on my R with my kids actually. Because that seems to be where H is able to control me and it has to be because of my own insecurities. I think if I can get past the feelings of being 'left out' and feel confident that my children love me and respect my authority as much as they resepct H's, D will not scare me so much. Maybe when I'm truly no longer afraid, we'll actaully be able to heal.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Quote: Now we're stuck again because each of us knows the other will likely not leave. We have quite literally been to he!! in our M and if neither of us called it quits, then it's probably not gonna happen.
So what if you said, "to he!! with all the books, and all the theories, and all the self-help, and all the rest. I'm here. H is here. No one's leaving. So I'm going to make this the very best M that I can, whether H jumps on board tomorrow or in 2030 or never. I'm not leaving my kids and my home. He won´t go away. 'Nuff said, I'm gonna make this work as best it can."
For your consideration.
Thanks,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
Hey Joe, thanks for stopping in, I hope all is going well with you!! I catch one of your posts every now and then and it seems that you are.
So what if you said, "to he!! with all the books, and all the theories, and all the self-help, and all the rest. I'm here. H is here. No one's leaving. So I'm going to make this the very best M that I can, whether H jumps on board tomorrow or in 2030 or never. I'm not leaving my kids and my home.
This is pretty much where I am at. The idea of my M never getting back to a 'normal' state is a lot to swallow so I try not to think about it and just accept that I am here in the present~I cannot look to far into the future...I cannot see the future so it is pointless.
I've arranged for a job interview for H at the company I work for which is something I previously refused to do because work is my refuge....it is my place away from home, away from my problems. I was very reluctant to invite him into this world even though we will not be working in the same building. But I did because it will mean a lot of good things for H and the kids, no more traveling. That will be good and bad for me, but I'm trying to focus on the good. It will also allow us to move forward with buying land and building a house because if we know where we will both be working, we can focus on land in certain areas. We've actually already found the piece of land we want, but it's not on the market yet. If all goes the way we hope, we could have a contract on it, contingent on perc test, very soon.
I am trying to accept the present circumstances, come what may. And yes, the R books have definitely been taken off my list of what to read!
When you get a chance, you might consider peeking in on Infidelity. You may find someone there you recognize.
Hey Burgbud, I checked out the infidelity forum briefly, but didn't see anyone I recognized. I'll check again a bit later.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
When H returns, I will be able to hear myself think again hopefully or at least will have the freedom to go for a walk alone if I choose where I can be by myself. I just need to think heavily on this area of my life, I feel something pulling me, although that makes it sound weirder than it is.