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So what did your H say about all that?

The MC was more making a statement than asking for feedback. Now that I think about it, I'd like to have heard what he had to say.

That is a HUGE problem and one that personally, I would deal with before any of the M issues.

That was one of my pre-A issues, that I didn't feel like an important part of the family. This had a huge effect on my self esteem because I felt like there was something wrong with me as a mother and therefore as a person. Having D3 helped me tremendously because I learned with her that I *am* a good mother. When it was just the three of us, it wasn't at all uncommon for me to cry because I felt left out emotionally.

Maybe the two of you could agree on some things related to the kids so that it reduces some of the confusion for your S and D.

H agreed to start bedtime at 9:30 for S5. That means he's in bed by 10pm and then he's allowed to get up 2-3 times for water. That's as good of an agreement as I was going to get. My compromise was in bed, ready to go to sleep at 9:30 (which I still think is too late). H would not have it.

I'd break that "seperate teams" mentality asap.

I try. I try not to panic when D3 crawls in bed with Daddy (because I often feel like she will eventually prefer Daddy too to the point of not wanting to spend time with me) and I tell S5 all the time how much I love him and how important he is to me and how much I love being with him. S5 told H yesterday that we had the *best* day, which made me feel sooo good. Since H is out of town, I took the kids to the play area at the mall and then we had Chinese chicken together and then we got slurpees and then we went to Build-a-Bear and made Daddy a teddy bear for him to take with him when he goes on trips (it has a voice box inside with the kid's voices telling him how much they love and miss him) and then we went on the carousel. We had a good time, but it was really nice to hear it from S5's mouth.
Also, H started leaving his bedroom light on for S5 when S5 goes to bed (my 'old' bedroom is right across from S5's room) and I have no idea why he would do that. S5 has never been scared of the dark. H started trying to do that with D3 too, leaving the bathroom light on all the time and I would keep shutting it off. Many nights she asked for it and I told her no. She never cried or fussed about it, she just started getting used to having it on. I have no idea why he would start something like that....making them dependent on lights being on. Anyway, I didn't have too much difficulty at all getting S5 to sleep with the light off and I'm hoping that I can keep it that way.
Our kids don't get all tucked in and sleeping until 10:30-11:00 and I like to have a few moments of just quiet ya know, with the lights off, etc. H is very not like that. He is a night owl and leaves the lights on and makes dinner very late, watches TV....he even works out after the kids go to bed anywhere between 11:00-11:30...music blaring in his room, running on the treadmill.
It's been so disruptive to his life and to our R, and I just really try to go the extra mile to make sure S5 has good sleeping habits, but it just seems that H is determined to make S5 just like him, bad habits and all. It's very frustrating.

if you did choose D, you may actually be able to have some better control over how the kids are raised,

I've thought about this many times.

That was one of my pre-A issues, that I didn't feel like an important part of the family. This had a huge effect on my self esteem because I felt like there was something wrong with me as a mother and therefore as a person.
Well, your lack of self-esteem probably led to this problem in the first place. Sounds like your H has always "called the shots" in a sense and when the kids came along it just multiplied.
Having D3 helped me tremendously because I learned with her that I *am* a good mother. When it was just the three of us, it wasn't at all uncommon for me to cry because I felt left out emotionally.

Hmmm...it's interesting that the gender of your children had such an effect on your sense of mothering. Probably spurred on by your H's clear preference for the boy. No wonder you felt left out. I'm guessing you feel like a better mother with your D because your H "lets" you have more control with her. His controlling is still the problem, the common denominator.
Our kids don't get all tucked in and sleeping until 10:30-11:00 and I like to have a few moments of just quiet ya know, with the lights off, etc. H is very not like that. He is a night owl and leaves the lights on and makes dinner very late, watches TV....he even works out after the kids go to bed anywhere between 11:00-11:30...music blaring in his room, running on the treadmill.
It's been so disruptive to his life and to our R, and I just really try to go the extra mile to make sure S5 has good sleeping habits, but it just seems that H is determined to make S5 just like him, bad habits and all. It's very frustrating.

Oh no, that would not work for me. I need a few hours downtime, not a few moments. I have S6 and D4 and they are asleep by 7:30 every night. They wake up at 7am. What time do your kids have to wake up? They can't possibly be sleeping til 11am. Kids that age need up 11/12 hours sleep a night, if no naps.
So is your H's music blaring loud enough for the kids to hear it?
The lights on dependency is quite fitting considering your H has such enmeshment/dependency issues. Might as well add more fuel to the fire.
S5 told H yesterday that we had the *best* day, which made me feel sooo good. Since H is out of town,
hmmm...interesting how happy you and the kids can be with H gone.
It's not all gloom and doom scenarios. Just try and remember that. Spend time with the kids alone when you can. Teach them about respecting Mommy yourself even if H is not around to pitch in.

This had a huge effect on my self esteem because I felt like there was something wrong with me as a mother and therefore as a person.

Heather, I think that your self-esteem issues started way back with your childhood. I remember reading your FOO story and I was struck by the fact that your parents didn't seem to tell you what a great kid you were and support you in school and activities. Your feelings of being left out are continuation.

I've never been to a martial arts class, but I've read that they can really teach you dicipline and boost your self-esteem.

Jabez

I'm guessing you feel like a better mother with your D because your H "lets" you have more control with her.

Yes, without a doubt. It really doesn't have much to do with the gender at all. Plus S5 was my first baby and I had lots of roadblocks like returning to work two weeks after having him and with working and being so exhausted and having a nephew who was colicky, I was terrified of never getting a full nights sleep again. Because H is a night owl, I gladly let him take over the night time duties, but I lost a great deal of bonding that I found I could not get back. It's one of my greater regrets. The MC asked me yesterday if H always wanted children, if he talked about it, etc. The answer is no, S5 was completely unplanned and I had no idea that H would be such an involved father....by the time I realized *how* involved he would be, the situation was staring me in the face and I do see how I contributed to setting that up with my willingness to give up nightly duties. I diligently breast fed, but I mostly pumped because a)Matt could help and b)I just didn't get the idea of sitting still with my baby, I was far too impatient, thinking of all the things I needed to do. He was a verrry slow, lazy breastfeeder and I quicky found that he gulped a bottle much more quickly. Of course, with my second child, I realized the benefits of sitting still with my miraculous new baby and I wasn't afraid of her one bit. I wish I could do the first one again, but alas, I cannot.

I need a few hours downtime, not a few moments. I have S6 and D4 and they are asleep by 7:30 every night. They wake up at 7am. What time do your kids have to wake up? They can't possibly be sleeping til 11am. Kids that age need up 11/12 hours sleep a night, if no naps.

Well, ideally, I would like that much time too. Especially to give H and I some alone time, but he never felt the same way. His point was that we spend so little time with them as it is, and for the most part, I do agree. Even if I separated from H, I cannot see myself putting them to bed before 9pm. Even that would give H and I 1-2 solid hours together, but he's not interested. We go out a lot too, out to dinner, shopping, etc and many times don't get home until 9-9:30. That will have to end once S5 is in kidegarten.
The kids get up at 6:45, but they both still get two hour naps at school, which they use easily the teachers tell us. I have quoted that children need bet 10-12 hours of sleep and he has figured the naps in. They are still supposed to get 10 uninterrupted hours at night regardless of naps, but he doesn't buy that I guess.

So is your H's music blaring loud enough for the kids to hear it?

Once my kids are sleeping, they are pretty sound sleepers. D3 can probably hear it just a little bit and she's usually been sleeping for an hour or so before H starts so it's not lound enough through H's door to wake her up. S5 can probably hear it more as he is right across the hall, but I don't think it keeps him awake unless he's already having a difficult night.

I remember reading your FOO story and I was struck by the fact that your parents didn't seem to tell you what a great kid you were and support you in school and activities. Your feelings of being left out are continuation.

My parents actually did tell me all the time how proud they were of me, etc. In fact, that may be where my expectation for admiration came. They always seemed 'surprised' by me, by how smart I was, by the hobbies I chose, by the way I initiated things on my own. I can remember my Mom saying to others "She loves books, I don't know where she gets it from...". They were very proud of me. I used to clean my room and do things to make my Mom happy and I used to be funny to make my Dad laugh. Nothing over the top, it's just how I learned to make them happy and proud.
But they never 'played' with me or truly interested themselves in my life and we lived 15 miles from 'town' so I was very, very lonely. So Jabez, perhpas you are right, that my feelings of being left out came from living that far away from civilization....when you are a kid and can't drive yourself to see friends or do things, 15 miles can seem like another country. I had two best friends who lived in town and I often felt very left out with them because I was too far away to participate in the spur of the moment things they did together. It was hard.

Heather...you have probably heard this before, but I think your H has ONE thing going for him, and that's his parenting of your son, and he's not giving it up. That's where he gets his power and control, over you, over the family.

heather


the things I am going to suggest are not intended to save your marriage at all cost. they are intended to be honest and require you H to acknowledge his power and control. so you can find out if you should stay or go, and that he has influence in that decision.

Right now I want to shove his head up his ^ss, since he likes it there so much. well thats not helpful. Your swiss cheese power plays the past couple months havent helped anything either though.

after the past few big blowups, its going to take T I M E, and actions, not words. That is the only thing your H is going to allow as proof, action, before anything moves forward. When I say action, I do not mean his unreasonable ideas on what you need to do.

The ladies are giving you some real good advice and support.

I can see that I wasnt clear about the bed issue.

I've tried to push the issue verbally and just get shot down, so stop. you set your self back from your goal when you do this. although he insists that I could sleep in my bed one day, it's all in my power thats not the truth. if it was, you would be sleeping there, already. so because he does have the power, he can use it to be cruel or be forgiving. say something like this, not in anger. If it wasnt a power game with him, he would tell you how and when.

if its done in a loving detached manner, and not a escalation of wills, I understand your feeling on this.
no I meant when you do it as a last resort. I wasnt talking about him.

Again, what would I do when he says no? Leave? That makes me feel worse than I did before I tried, kwim? yes I know. He *would* say no. maybe. Chromo has been trying to predict his W too, not very succesfully. However because you just -----> I just asked him 3 weeks ago and nothing has happened since then that would indicate he's changed his mind. this is what I am talking about by verbally pushing. you ask first out of fear. since you have to ask, you must not think you deserve it. mind you this is me trying to intuit him. on one level I understand how he feels. the only reason I didnt do this when I decided to fix things, is because I know what works. even when it conflicts with my feelings, I managed to force myself to do it, with some slips. I cheated and took shortcuts, to my detriment. of course. doi.

so how about baby steps? find reason to go in there. sit on the be, lay down, wrestle/snuggle with the kids. if he comes in and says something say 'would you like me to leave'? that acknowledges he has the power here, despite what he says. how about in the morning? wake up and slip in and snuggle with him for a few minutes? If he says
something, reply, 'i just wanted a few minutes with you, or my family...etc.' get up. nothing for him to resist, cause there is no push by you. There is always huge areas between withdrawing and pushing. they just take imagination and not personlizing. pretty impossible in this instand, I know.
After two years, what I want to know is, if my H really does care for me, why has he shown no empathy?

Ask him. 'H do you love me anymore?' scary stuff, makes you vulnerable. may require you to make a hard choice depending on his answer.

of course I woulnt expect him to say yes. If he asked you what would you honestly say?
Your there out of raw effort, choice, and commitment. Not much feeling to it, but its still respectable.
also, you have done a really crappy job of it yourself, the empathizing. even though you have a bunch of cuckholded H's telling you how much they wish they had that. irrelevant.

Why have you done a crappy job of it? Because you dont see it how he does, or even like several of us here, including a couple of A experts, have tried to relay to you. Yep. exactly. thats what empathy is. seeing his side of it and being able to feel his feelings.

But, let's just say that I'm nowhere near convinced that my H gives a sh!t if I live or die. And I am absolutely *not* being melodramatic. If we separate, he'd only have the kids 50% of the time. If I died on the other hand...
I dont think you are being melodramatic. I do think you are hurting, hopeless, and not forgiving yourself.
It was good to see your post, about your realization. It was a good first step to forgiving yourself. In the meantime, while your H is being a P, you can learn to take care of yourself, and stop being vengeful and vindictive and so reactive.
This is what you will learn if you live on your own, you may as well start now.

The only thing your H has asked for is being nice to each other.

so what kinds of things would give you hope? you were doing them, Im not going to tell them to you. Ill let you remember, and tell us.

Heather...you have probably heard this before, but I think your H has ONE thing going for him, and that's his parenting of your son, and he's not giving it up. That's where he gets his power and control, over you, over the family

I agree and I'm hoping as S5 gets older that will end....but then I think about the games that H intends to get S5 involved in and I'm not so sure. I can picture H and S5 up until the wee hours on the weekends, gaming. Ugh.

When I say action, I do not mean his unreasonable ideas on what you need to do.

While I admit that I have been inconsistent, there have been long spans of time where things have gone very well. I have been nice, he has been nice. It doesn't get us anywhere. There is always something, or many things, that ruin it eventually. A conversation where he tells me he'll never kiss me again. A conversation where he tells me I should put him through school now because he did it for me 7 years ago. A conversation where he tells me that I should quit karate or at least limit it to once a week. A conversation where he tells me how inappropriate it was to give a male coworker a ride home and how can he possibly allow me to sleep in my bed when I pull crap like that? A conversation where he tells me that I've never shown remorse, never shown commitment, on and on and on. So, while I would love to believe that there are actions out there that I could do that would turn this M around, I feel like I've BTDT. Now....I do acknowledge that perhaps I haven't BTDT for AS LONG of periods as it would take. I get easily discouraged by all the negative. Quite frankly, he needs to remember that I have a lot of issues with this M as well and he can only push me so far before I'm going to say 'Fine, fukc you then'....it's not like I'm smitten with the R we had and I would do anything to get it back. That's crap and that's what he wants from me. He wants me to regret everything I've ever done to damage this R, take responsibility for everything while he sits back in judgment, periodically saying, 'nope, sorry. not good enough'.
So, back to your point. BTDT. He *always* brings it back around to what I've done that I shouldn't have, etc. You and I can see it as unreasonable all day long and try to 'go around it', but I'm here to tell ya, he ain't lettin go of it.

so how about baby steps? find reason to go in there. sit on the be, lay down, wrestle/snuggle with the kids. if he comes in and says something say 'would you like me to leave'? that acknowledges he has the power here, despite what he says. how about in the morning? wake up and slip in and snuggle with him for a few minutes? If he says
something, reply, 'i just wanted a few minutes with you, or my family...etc.' get up. nothing for him to resist, cause there is no push by you.

Blackfoot, I so appreciate that you take the time to make suggestions to me, so please don't misunderstand me. The thought of doing this at this point, makes me ill. I tried this tactic back in the beginning before it had gone on so horrendously long. The fact is, it's too late. It's been too long. I'm done. I'm not going to placate him and soothe him like an wounded animal. It's too freakin late for that. He's not healing because he's not allowing himself to, not because I haven't tried. I always come back to 'maybe I haven't tried hard enough, I mean I do get discouraged and I haven't been consistent, etc'. Enough. What person *wouldn't* get discouraged in my situation? I'm not freakin Super Woman. I'm just a girl. Who made a mistake and wants to make it right. But I can't be perfect! I have to give myself credit for trying and stop telling myself I haven't done this or that or done it correctly or for long enough or perhaps I've tried it, *but* I didn't try it while wearing my lucky pink undies......I have to stop.

Ask him. 'H do you love me anymore?' scary stuff, makes you vulnerable. may require you to make a hard choice depending on his answer.

I've asked. He says he doesn't know.

of course I woulnt expect him to say yes. If he asked you what would you honestly say?

Right, him being who he is, I wouldn't expect him to say yes at this point either.
I would say "There is still love for you in my heart. After all that has gone on, it is not on the tip of my tongue anymore, but it can undoubtedly thrive again". I didn't have to think long and hard on that, it's what came to mind and it *is* what I would say.

The only thing your H has asked for is being nice to each other.

Yeah, ok <sarcasm>. He has asked for more than that, directly and indirectly. If this was just about being nice Blackfoot, I think I could handle that. It's because it's in fact about so much more than that, that being nice is sometimes more than I can handle.

so what kinds of things would give you hope? you were doing them, Im not going to tell them to you. Ill let you remember, and tell us.

I'm confused. What kinds of things would give *me* hope? Things that I can do myself that would give me hope? Nothing. Any hope I find will be bourne out of H's actions. It could be anything.....even as small as a sincere acknowledgement that he hasn't been perfect and that he wants to try. Anything coming from him indicating that he gives a damn, would give me hope.

I think I've decided to give it one more year. Inside, I feel like I'm done. But one of the things I haven't tried is just living. No R talks, no pressure, no talking about my expectations, etc. This should be relatively easy to do just because I do feel like I'm done. I'm going to get my financial status ready to move out and do some serious furniture shopping.
Most of the progress we've made has been in the last year. I mean, this time last year, there was a court date scheduled headed toward D (almost this time last year, actually the court date was June 10). So, maybe if I give it another year, we will be in a much better place this time next year. If not, well...
In the meantime, I don't see myself doing much that would make me very relevant to this BB anymore, so I don't know how much I will be posting. I'm not ruling anything out at this point.....just trying to go with the flow for a little while and see where it goes.

Heather:

If you don't mind my interjecting, this is where I think the crux of your problem is occurring:

Quote:

---

H: "You've never been sorry for what you did, you have never recommitted to me."

Heather: "H, I *am* sorry for what I did..."

H cuts in: "Yeah, you're sorry alright. You continue to do whatever you want, thinking there should be no consequences for your actions".

---

Right there, in bold. He does not see your actions as concillitory. You are still enjoying life, doing things that please yourself, making decisions for yourself, and he does not see that you being a wife, in the same home, being a mother, as being 'sorry' for your actions.

In a word, you are not groveling. Shame on you.

No, I don't mean to disabuse his sense of recompense... but clearly, you are not acting like someone who is sorry for their actions, for you are not flogging yourself on a daily basis for your sins. I am not making light of this... but can you see it?

Your actions, in your daily life, to HIM, are not retrobutive in nature. You are not asking, daily, for pardon.

I think you need to have a conversation about forgiveness, in my opinion, and what 'forgiveness' means to both of you... what it looks like, what it sounds like, what it means to both of you. For if you have to carry a cross for the rest of your life, in his eyes... you may as well bail.

He clearly has not forgiven you... to me... he's still thinking about it. Forgiveness, to me, is a do or do not thing. Kind of like love. YOu either love someone or you do not... it isn't something that has to be thought about or considered... or it just 'isn't.' kwis?

You are sorry. You aren't 'think about' being sorry. You are. And you are ready to move on.

He isn't 'forgiving' you. He's still thinking about it. Fair enough. But the process of forgiving cannot take the rest of your lives. Justice is a crime that is paid for ONCE and forgiven. Done. End of discussion. Suffering is a crime that never ends... which, to me, he clearly wants to see you do. Not saying that is abnormal in these sitches... but... as one who went through the whole 'EA' thing with an H... there HAS to be an end... or there is no moving forward. Two years, in my mind... is well beyond the time of 'daily flogging' mode. Not saying it isn't beyond 'knee jerk' mode... but way beyond daily flogging mode.

In my mind, you need an 'end date.' He may not be able to give it to you. But for both of your sakes, and for the sake of your kids and your marriage, you need one, and soon. If not... you cannot live in an endless state of retribution... and that is what I think you are in.

Corri

Corri,

Well said.

Heather,

I don't know what, to your H, would constitute being "sorry" but I know, based on your description that what you are doing and saying isn't it. I think your H may not even know what it is that you could do that would look "sorry" enough. I would be tempted to ask your H if you stopped going out, quit work, stayed home all the time, slept on a bed of nails, washed his feet every day while chanting "I'm sorry", if that would be enough... I would bet it wouldn't. It wouldn't simply because he can't wrap his mind around being able to forgive you. He can't do that because he hasn't recognized his contributions to the problem. You can't do that for him. He either gets there or he doesn't. He either decides to love and forgive or he doesn't.

I don't belittle the pain and humiliation your H must feel. However, only he can get past it. So far, he just doesn't seem to want to. He wants to marinate in his pain and for you to do so too. Recently, I asked if you were done. I asked because you sound done. If you put a date on things as Corri suggested I wouldn't make it too far down the road and I wouldn't keep it to myself.

What about this conversation? "H, I cannot continue living like this. I have apologized. I have repented. I have been punished for the last two years. In the next year, if I don't see some signs of healing then I will know that this marriage cannot be fixed. I am sorry for what I have done and I have great hope that we can find our way back from this. Hopefully, to a relationship that is better and more fulfilling than before. However, if we can't then I am ready to live separately and co-parent our children from separate residences. I would know that this marriage was healing if....(put your own description here)"

See Heather, it is not having these kinds of necessary conversations that resulted in making an affair so attractive. You cannot continue having conversations that are "You ask a question or voice a concern. He blames or deflects. You walk away and do whatever you think is right." I'll bet the current pattern is part of what things were like before the affair, part of what made another person attractive. I'll bet the other man offered an openess and an acceptance that you didn't have with your H. The current situation is probably what was going on between you before the affair just amped up and verbalized, with your H feeling that he now has the moral high ground to do and say whatever.

I am not telling you to end your marriage. I am not saying that your H is a bad guy. He is a hurt guy. He was probably hurt by someone long before you two ever met -parents? peers? girls? He is protecting himself from you and anyone else who has ever hurt him in the past. You can offer him compassion but it is he who must step out of his comfort zone. I hope he does.

Good luck,

Karen