Divorcebusting.com Forums Open Forums THE SEX-STARVED MARRIAGE Am I Creating a SSM Part V

MrsNops, I guess my old thread locked, but I wanted to say thanks for that link, it was a good reminder of things that I am supposed to be focusing on with my own behavior during my interactions with H. Keeping my cool, thinking before I speak, keeping my voice level, staying on topic, not participating in demeaning conversation, etc. Straight talk is difficult for me. I think it's because over time, the need to protect my feelings rather than reveal them has become so strong. It is very hard for me to admit the things that hurt me. I get angry instead. I guess I feel like so much of what H does is intended to hurt me (ignoring me, talking disrespectfully, calling me names,etc) that if I reveal to him that it hurts me, I feel like I am just telling him “YES, there you have it, anytime you want to hurt me, this is exactly what you need to do”.
Lately, I just spew hatred for H....I was doing really good for a while and now all the anger has been brought to the surface again. I am so frustrated and just about at the end of my rope because H has refused MC and keeps telling me that the ball is in my court. He keeps telling me that I am not committed and rattles off the same crap, i.e. 'disappearing' for a night (the hotel), taking strange men home (giving my coworker a ride). My anger is getting the best of me, I have got to get a grip. This link reminded me of the things I need to be focusing on.

You are definitely being hit with the vague language - you have this standard being held over you that you are supposed to achieve that will prove a goal - which is also vague.

He says he can't understand why I don't get it, why I wouldn't see that the ball is in my court. He acts like it is so obvious. I told him that I just want to reach an agreement where we can agree to move forward, agree to try. Maybe we can rekindle something, maybe we can't, but at least we can agree to try. We had a great Memorial weekend, but he just couldn't keep it going, he had to bring us back to the same old issues. I said I want to sleep in my own bed and be treated like a person. He snorted and told me I was 'such a child'. Which, to me, I can't get. I'm a child because I think it's totally wrong to be kicked out of my own bedroom for TWO years? I know that it is always easier to see fault in others than in yourself, but I really see the majority of childish behavior coming from him. But that would figure wouldn’t it, lol?
I told him that the farther away we get from the A, the less likely it is that he's going to miraculously see what he wants to see from me. I told him that in the beginning I had a lot more good feelings stored that allowed for me to be much more understanding of his perspective.....but now, there is so much water under the bridge and I feel like he beat me like a dog after I revealed the A. His rage was untethered and self preservation was absolutely necessary for me. So much has transpired, I just don't have it in me to give him unconditional love or understanding. I don't expect it from him either. I just want to try, that's all, neither of us demanding commitments or guarantees. I am convinced it would all fall into place if we could do this. He expects me to give more than himn and give before he does because I cheated on him. I can never argue against his logic….his logic is theoretically sound...it always is. Even when it came to my bridesmaids' dresses for our wedding....he had to agree on the style, color, etc. His logic was that it's his wedding too. Agreed. I can't even get the set of dishes I want because he doesn't like them. Granted, he shouldn't have to eat off dishes he doesn't like. So there it is….the logic I can’t argue with…I get so frustrated. My mother and sister want to scream 'why the HELL do you CARE?!', lol. Back to the point, I cheated on my H, I risked my family, I put it all on the line. Back in the beginning, I told H I would do anything, anything to fix it. H was entitled to every bit of anger he felt...here's the but....but the way he unleashed it on me has taken it's toll to the point that I don't have the feelings in me to do what he needs. I think I understand his need for me to 'run to him' as Stig said. I understand his intense need to see a high level of commitment from me. I even understand his desire to see me suffer. I'm just saying that I've had enough....and I don't have anything left to give. At this point, it's almost like neither of us really want the M so there is no one to carry that burden that has to be carried in the beginning of repairing a R. But I see so many reasons to try, that I can't seem to give up. He can't fathom why *he* should have to change because *I* cheated. Again, I understand. It's not fair. But that's the way it is. When I can see that he is trying I soften and it makes me want to keep trying too. But there are still some very serious issues that he refuses to give on even when things are going better between us, like letting me sleep in the bed. I just can't get past that, even when I can see improvement in other areas. I can't live with the idea that I am trying to make things work with a man who can't get any peace unless there is still a measure of punishment for me. The implications of that are huge to me.....why would I want to be with someone like that? If I just cared about saving my M, I understand baby steps. But I care about my integrity too and no baby step can possibly matter enough to negate that issue for me.

I wonder if you could come up with some more concrete goals for yourself in regards to you marriage? I liked what you said about making the guest room more amenable to your needs since that's where you are sleeping. I would caution you not to use it as something to dig at him with, kwim? But rather, more of an "okay, these are the current circumstances, so under these circumstances this is what I can do" sort of thing. In regards to the children, I would encourage you to come up with your own excursion dates. Are there things your children just adore with which you can entice them?


My thoughts are so back and forth right now that it’s hard to focus. I have a counseling session today with MC and I’m hoping she can help me focus. I need to figure out what I want.

As for the kids....I will give it some thought. Our kids are so spoiled, you really have to raise the bar to entice them I have to be careful not to overstep and try to do something that should really be reserved for the family to do together....I mean he and H just do video games. A movie would work good, but we always do movies as a family. I've been thinking about scrap booking and getting doubles for the kids and letting them cut and make their own scrap books out of the pictures.
I'm not very creative...and I have to admit that playing does not come easy to me. I never really 'played' as a child...everything always had to be productive.....instead of 'playing' in the snow, I would shovel the driveway for fun or pack the brick on the house with snow and try to get all the way down the house. I have always been very methodical. I am good at being goofy though, I make my kids laugh, I roll on the floor with them. It's hard for me to sit still on the couch...I miss a lot of good snuggle time, I have to learn to just sit sometimes. I used to play a lot of video games as a kid...I've thought about trying to get involved in them again because that would be a really good bonding thing with S5. I rebelled heavily with the video games at first (the first few months) because I felt strongly that S5 was too young....H started playing video games with him at age 4. But, I had to face it that kids love video games and H wasn't going to back me up on it. I guess I might as well get involved in it too at this point.

This was the most honest and IMO ( ) best post you have made in quite a while heather.


I even understand his desire to see me suffer. I'm just saying that I've had enough....and I don't have anything left to give

he does not 'need to see you suffer. Its not healthy for him. He is stuck in a negative emotional loop.

he needs your help stopping his negative and painful imagary. I know said you find this aspect of his 'childish' and that is a very apt description. That inner child was violently beaten by your A. That inner child wants justice. So how do you deal with a child?

When he is cruel and callous to you, Look at him (NOT, like you want to box with him) and say 'H.......Stop. Please.' If he doesnt.... walk away. show your pain. This is honest on your part and is setting up a boundary. Getting angry in return and saying things like...'shut your mouth' <grimace> give him more justification.


But there are still some very serious issues that he refuses to give on even when things are going better between us, like letting me sleep in the bed. I just can't get past that, ......I care about my integrity too and no baby step can possibly matter enough to negate that issue for me.

Saying I cant get past that is putting you in a loop.

Here is the fact and reality Heather. You are still there. Untill and unless you are willing to walk away because of the bed issue you are sabotoging yourself with making it about your integrity. I think it is more about pride, because of when and how you reacted the last time.

It is a issue. Your right its not fair. I noticed you just said he has to deal with the same thing.



About your son. Have you thought of enrolling him in karate class with or on the same night(s) as you? even if it was just one of the nights.
I dont know if your dojo mixes ages...


never really 'played' as a child...everything always had to be productive.....instead of 'playing' in the snow, I would shovel the driveway for fun...... I have always been very methodical

HA!!! I knew you were a warrior chick. <smug>

I remember when I was 6. I had this huge sandbox. The neighbor kids would come over to play, and they had there plastic shovels and buckets and would say stuff like,
'We are going to dig to china' <BF rolls his eyes.> 'You know even if you could dig all the way, through the molten rock, you wouldnt come out in china. Ill show you on my globe......

That didnt go over so well. So I went and got the real trowel and weeded the flower gardens.... to find worms and other bugs and chase the girls .....


See. I was always a jerk. Its not something new.

Lucky for me, women like that stuff. Either that or they were just using me for my sandbox. LOL.

he needs your help stopping his negative and painful imagary. I know said you find this aspect of his 'childish' and that is a very apt description. That inner child was violently beaten by your A. That inner child wants justice. So how do you deal with a child?


I know. He told me just recently that I ripped his heart out. If I felt connected to him in any way these days, that may have made me cry. But I don't and it didn't.
I don't expect that I will ever be willing to do what he needs of me. We had a discussion Wed night where he told me that my attitude was the problem, my whole attitude where I think I can do whatever I want. I told him that I think I could get back to a place where I could behave more lovingly but that I would not ever be able to view my restricted freedom as he does. He told me that he needed me to take on the attitude that I need to do whatever I can to rebuild trust. I said you want me to take on your feelings about these issues (giving someone a ride home, not being able to go places, not being gone over a certain amount of time, etc). He said no, but I think even he knew that was in fact what he was saying. He wants me to voluntarily limit my freedom in almost all respects, be willing to do it forever if necessary and do it without resentment and with a great attitude and be very loving. I told him it was not going to happen. I told him everything I've read about rebuilding trust....nothing says that the person who cheated should have to give up their free time forever more. I need to be 'transparent' I told him. He knows the password to my email account, I've offered my cell phone bills, I check in, etc. He laughed and said I could have other email accounts, I could be anywhere when I call....same ole stuff.
I can't/won't give up my freedom.

Getting angry in return and saying things like...'shut your mouth' <grimace> give him more justification.

I know. I felt trapped because we were in the car and I couldn't walk away. Sometimes I think he actually gets satisfaction out of the kids hearing him say certain things.....I can't imagine why he insisted on keeping his voice raised even after I pointed it out. I mostly said 'shut your mouth' because I was livid that he wasn't concerned about the kids hearing what he was saying. He has said things like 'You H won't sleep with you because....' on more than one occasion in front of the kids and it drives me crazy. So, ironically, I was concerned about the kids hearing everything H was saying and the only thing S5 commented on was that it was not nice to tell Daddy to shut up.

Untill and unless you are willing to walk away because of the bed issue you are sabotoging yourself with making it about your integrity. I think it is more about pride, because of when and how you reacted the last time.

The emotions that I feel as a result of not sleeping in my bed vary and are probably caused by lots of things....my guilt, shame, pride, whatever. I don't deny that. But when I think about the principle....it is definitely my integrity that suffers. Particularly when I ask myself "WHY would you want to be with a man who finds it so easy and reasonable to treat you like this?" It quickly becomes a matter of integrity when I so strongly disapprove of the way I am being treated.

Your right its not fair. I noticed you just said he has to deal with the same thing.

Good point. At least I can acknowledge that what he has to deal with is not fair though. I can see my part in this and I can see how it has caused him to suffer. He does not acknowledge that it isn't fair to be kicked out of my bedroom....he not only thinks it *IS* fair, he is perfectly ready and willing to argue and and every point and/or feeling I have.

About your son. Have you thought of enrolling him in karate class with or on the same night(s) as you? even if it was just one of the nights.
I dont know if your dojo mixes ages...

S5 was in karate for a couple months. He decided he didn't want to go anymore. Karate is very focused and in my school, they treat the children just like the adults for the most part. So they have to focus and memorize the katas and the form....it isn't very exciting for a young kid.

See. I was always a jerk. Its not something new.

I don't think you're a jerk BF.

Lucky for me, women like that stuff. Either that or they were just using me for my sandbox. LOL

Hmm. Do you still have a sandbox?! If so, you might need to think on that one a bit longer

hey heather. I devoured the website Mrs nops offered to you, on P/A. Trying to work on it in myself. I do well with it, untill something like an A occurs. Then its ridiculously out of control.

some Examples. wife starts EA, I drop ALL boundaries with her even though its the exact opposite thing to do. <BF--swing in the wind b!tch> Quit job that I/we strived very hard for, when I got the 'to little to late' speech. <BF OH Yeah! You dont care huh. Ill show you. *snaps fingers*, eight years of life efforts gone.> Saying 'whatever you want' to
e v e r y s i n g l e question asked, when she tried to speak to me days before D, after PA and second seperation. (women love that comment. makes them hot. Not. )
Ironically many P/A style interactions are very effective when creating attraction though. *sigh* Enough about me.

Found another article, at the end it talked about a woman who is able to stay out of her husbands P/A.
Thought you might like it.

P/A

Heather,

Quote:

---

He can't fathom why *he* should have to change because *I* cheated. Again, I understand.

---

You do? Could you explain it to me, because I don't understand. My XW cheated, really cheated, not some kiss she fessed up to me about, and I did fathom why I had to change. I was part of the M that fell subject to an A, and I wanted to rebuild it.

I see a lot of theories and explanations and advice on your threads lately, from me and from others, but I have a hunch the best bet for your M right now is "Keeping a beginner's mind." Explanations about what worked/didn't work and why/why not don't seem to have gotten you much closer to what you want, from what I read.

Hugs and prayers,

Joe

Blackfoot, thanks for sharing that link and a little about some of the things you've struggled with.

Koshka, I know if my H were the one to have had the A, I would naturally feel the inclination to change as well. So, don't get me wrong, I *DO* think that both parties need to do what they can to change in the ways they feel necessary and to help provide the things that their partner sees lacking. To me, that is just common sense. But I can see the logic behind someone saying "YOU cheat on me, then tell me *I* have to change? How the he!! do you figure?!" It's not that I agree, it's just that I understand where he is coming from.

I haven't been posting much because I'm just not in a very positive place. I'm seriously considering hanging it up. H refuses to back to C and as I see it, that was our last hope. In fact, now it would take even more than an agreement to go because I saw from the few times that he went that he was just showing up. He wasn't open to really trying and talking and taking suggestions. He was just there to tell his side, not to try to see different perspectives.
I told H that he wants me to change who I am, change how I think. I told him that this is me and if he doesn't like it he can go find somebody else. He said he doesn't want anybody else (he was probably getting ready to say he just wants his kids, but I cut him off) and I said well then live your hermit life alone then because I am past the point where I give a fu@k. I said I told you that counseling was our last hope and you bailed out. He said it wasn't helping. I said it wasn't helping *YOU* and that's what this is all about right? YOUR pain, YOUR suffering, YOUR consequences. I told him that I didn't want to ruin our vacaton that we have planned for the end of July but that when we got back we needed to have a very serious discussion because this is not working.

So, now I need to think very hard about what I need, how to present it and what to do if he doesn't agree to any of it. I am no willing to go forward in the state we are in.

Heather,

Quote:

---

So, now I need to think very hard about what I need, how to present it and what to do if he doesn't agree to any of it. I am no willing to go forward in the state we are in.

---

Maybe MC can help you, personally, with the planning right now.

Hugs and prayers,

Joe

D@mn Heather. Hard place to be in right now. You really need to pour it ALL out at the MC session. Don't hold back anything. Critical junctures require all your energy. Given the things that are already said between you and your H, all the cards have been played.

I wish you well and hope for the best for you.

Chrome

Heather,

I actually think this is good news. You have reach “critical mass.” So now he is faced with a two choice dilemma. My only advice to you is to not react too quickly if he does not respond like you want. You may not have “cooked” him enough for him to see past his blinders. Too quick of a decision at this point may create irreversible damage. It will be very difficult for him to wrestle with his anger and come to the right choice, so try to really put on the compassionate, caring wife façade and show him to the best of your abilities everything he has asked of you.

Critical mass means dropping all denials, facing the truth and accepting responsibility. It does not mean that you win or he wins. It means that all the posturing is placed aside and the real understanding, negotiating and compromising can take place. So keep an open mind, take time to think over your decisions before saying anything, hold onto yourself to not react first, no matter how he may try to pull you into it. That will give the coming situation the best environment to develop in a positive way.

Koshka, I plan to address all this stuff with the MC. She has said she'd be lying if she thought H would change at this point. She said obviously anything is possible, but based on what she saw of him in MC, she doesn't see it happening. She said she likes H, he seems like a good man, but that he needs help and has a lot of issues and they are all not a result of my A like he seems to believe. She said that what he is doing is not ok and that his reactions are really over the top and not typical.

Chrome, you must not know me well enough to know that I don't hold back much

My biggest problem at this point is that I have problems wording things in a nice way. He's made it so dang clear he doesn't care that it's been pretty hard to filter my words so that they are received in the best possible way.

I had my hard drive slicked a few months ago and I had to have the files recovered b/c I forgot I had digital pictures on my computer of my daughter's birth. I was devastated when I realized they were gone and the IT guy at work offered to work with it in their spare time to see if they could recover them. Well, they did and the guy also hinted around that there were some other 'interesting' pictures on there. I looked through them last night and H came in because he was suspicious of what I was doing (that computer hasn't been plugged in for months much less turned on) and he saw what I was looking through. He just went about his business, whistling and working out, etc. Never once seemed to care that the pictures I was looking at would really hurt me, even though he knows how I feel about it. I feel like I am missing pieces from his side because he refuses to talk about his computer/porn habits and I don't know how far it goes, kwim? I don't know if he's participated in webcams or joined sites or paid for anything. That information would really help me be able to seal up this indecisiveness I've had. This hard drive was only used for about two years (the other one died and I threw it away) so out of the files that were recovered I did not find anything I haven't seen before. Sublime Directory, Sex Tracker and CamCrush and a few other misc sites. I couldn't find any shots of alternate emails or member log ins.
Anyway, his nonchalance about the things that hurt me (while he takes to an extreme all the consequences for the things that hurt him) are the real signs to me that this is over.

Cobra, you made a really good point.....I need to remember to make this a two choice dilemma for him, not just tell him I want to separate. In that choice though, there are so many things that are critically amiss that I don't even know what to say to him. It occurred to me yesterday that my H has actually divorced *me* emotionally. He has taken away any and all symbols of M and has made himself almost totally emotionally unavailable.

Cobra, that was a really good post for me, thanks for writing it. I know I can start off at the point where my defenses are dropped and I just lay it out. I am worried about my ability to stay in that place as he counters everything I say, telling me I haven't done anything, haven't changed, want everything my way, am so selfish for doing this to the kids. He always manages to make me feel like he's right....like I haven't given enough, haven't been patient enough....no one is consistent in those things all the time and I have been more inconsistent than most as I have struggled with this sooo much, to stay or to go. I am so troubled by our R, but I know that leaving won't be easy either and I know it is in everyone's best interest to stay, so I start to think things like 'maybe I can give it one more try....this time I will be really consistent, seek nothing in return, etc' and I start out with the best of intentions. Then something happens like giving the coworker a ride home in which everything seems to go to hell in a handbasket because he tells me how I haven't changed, I think I can do whatever I want, my attitude is the problem, I make everything worse. I know that's not true and I know it's not fair to say that and I get angry, I can't get it all of my chest because he refuses to listen and I just boil on the inside with hatred over the unfairness of everything. The unfairness that I am expected to keep trying, keep morphing while he sits in judgment of everything, never having to acknowledge his wrongs or his negative contributions to ANYthing. And then I get evil. And the cycle goes on. And on. I have got to break it and I feel like the only way I will ever break it is to step out of the situation that I feel is so unjust. That means to leave our home. I do not want a divorce. I want our M to work. But I feel like it cannot work while I am living under the same roof. We both need perspective and I truly think the only thing that will give us that perspective is some space and time apart. It's just so sad that it will hurt the kids so immensely and moving out may actually make H hate me worse than anything and may totally ruin our chances for reconcilation. It's also possible that I may get into my own place and feel that this anger still isn't subsiding.....but if I find that, I will still be gaining the perspective I need. I'm not saying I'm 100% right or even right at all....I just feel how I feel and I need to do something to allow myself to either accept how I feel or change it. I've tried so hard to find a way to do that while living in the same home as H.....but I feel so banished inside my home that I can't seem to get to a dignified place inside myself to allow me to accept these circumstances as my reality. I just can't accept it. H is taking power he doesn't have rights to in order to create his reality inside our home. I can't accept that even as bad as I want things to be better. H hasn't shown a real capacity for change in his life, real personal growth kind of change.
It is also a sad way to live your life to look back and wish you could have made things work, to wish your kids had one happy home, to wish for family vacations again.

The whole thing sucks so bad I could puke.