Awwww, always, it's a freaking love-fest around my thread today.
Quote: I also think that for W to feel your love, SHE needs to open her walls to accept it. This will come from forgiving herself, overcoming guilt, forgetting what she did (flashes/pangs of 'oh my God, how could I have done that.'), and then stop feeling like she alone was the victim in your M and to start looking at how SHE contributed to the demise. After all, your part was 50%.
Ok, here's one of my stumbling blocks...I don't really ever catch her in anything resembling 'oh my God, how could I have done that.' She may feel that way, but does not express it. I KNOW she will eventually have to visit her part of all this, and may well be doing that, just quietly.
Quote: This takes time, look how long it's taken you. Give her a chance. Maybe it'll go faster for her with your empathy and compassion, as UD states....whereas you gained this growth with her total rejection.
I believe that and I am going to try to approach things from this perspective.
Quote: Just remember, everyone, EVERYONE (including YOU), just want to be understood, as humans capable of mistakes, weaknesses and in the end, greatness for love.
Muddle, weren't you the one I was debating with the other day, lol. Anyways, another great bit of posting as far as I am concerned. You really have me thinking, about things I have already been thinking about, and new things too.
You and UD have really come through for me today. Thank you both.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.....this was incredible for me to read. Muddle, when I update my post, I may ask for your sage advice (more like a slap). Nothing is black and white.
If and when you start a conversation with W, make sure that you preface it with the plan that this will be a conflict, but that it is important for your relationship. "W, I have some things to talk about with you. We may disagree, and continue this discussion over a length of time. But I trust, and hope you do too, that we will be able to work it out for our relationship to become even stronger. When is a good time for you sweetheart?"
Bomb 1/06 D dismissed 11/07, attempt reconciliation. Premature. Divorce final October 31, 2008. OW looks like bad history. Over. Still hopeful. Baby steps. In R with my X.
I will add something to this discussion today, kinda in answer to the point that was made that my W doesn't get to see the "me" you all see.
Well, I was just thinking about all the wonderful new ideas I have heard today, and how to USE them in my life and I found the disconnect between the "DB Message Board" me and the real "What W Sees" me. It is the fact that most of my daily existence is free from existential discussion with W. We do dishes. We talk about the kids, and yes, SOME about us, but the kind of discussion WE get into here, almost never happens at home. We just don't go deep. Most of our communication is about daily, mundane stuff, and most of even the emotional, or deeper conversation is merely in reaction to some event of the day, not our long term issues, desires and needs.
Part of that could be because I have not been willing to be open with W (that will change now) and part of it is this block my W has toward all things philosophical or psychological. Funny, my two favorite classes in college, well three really, were Philosophy, psychology (was a psyche major at the time) and World Religion. Those were my W's least favorite classes.
It's not that she doesn't like to think, it's that she doesn't like to talk about, or examine thinking, while I, obviously, love nothing more than to examine my own thinking, and that of others.
So, I am wondering if my W's not seeing THIS me is because I don't show him to her, or because she truly wouldn't like him. That is interesting for me to think about.
I know she thinks I talk to much, brood too much and obsess over things, so maybe without all that, streamlined down to its essential ideas, she COULD be exposed to this me and like him...er...me...whatever, lol.
Quote: "W, I have some things to talk about with you. We may disagree, and continue this discussion over a length of time. But I trust, and hope you do too, that we will be able to work it out for our relationship to become even stronger. When is a good time for you sweetheart?"
This is a PERFECT, real world example to follow up my last "thought" post. I have tried this and been met repeatedly with "What is it. Just say it now, I have to xxx right now." When I respond with "No, it's not something that I need to, or want to discuss right now. When would be better?" She tries to adopt a tone of sincerity (probably thinking I am stewing...or KNOWING I am) and says, "No, really, lets talk now. I don't want to do it later. I'll be tired, etc."
Point is that no matter HOW I approach anything that seems like a general "R" talk, or expression of my feelings, she shuts it down, or minimizes it as something to just "get out of the way" so she can go about her daily life. This was BEFORE the affair. Now it is even worse, but I think with me starting to open up (she told me that she didn't EVER think I was doing that in the past, which was a bit of an eye opener because I thought I was...boy, was I wrong) we can get things moving in a more productive, constructive direction.
Wow, I'm impressed with all the discussions going on over here. Muddle... you managed to elaborate on some most worthwhile points, and I'm glad you jumped into the fray. I'm also glad that GH is so open about this stuff.
One thing before I jump back to my to do list here at work...
Quote: Ok, here's one of my stumbling blocks...I don't really ever catch her in anything resembling 'oh my God, how could I have done that.' She may feel that way, but does not express it.
Mr. Compassionate? You there? You will most likely never "catch" her in those moments. Those moments are private and shameful, and even if you're the greatest guy on earth, she's probably not going to keep opening up this wound for others to see.
So definitely assume that little bits and pieces will emerge when she's ready. I personally despise sharing shame once, let alone over a long period of time. Her choices have been very hurtful, and she knows it. Her conscience bothers her, so let her work things out when she's ready and let her do it her way.
Mr. W. has told me quite a few times that he's sincerely sorry for hurting me. I've accepted his apology and demonstrated that acceptance a thousand times over. As far as I'm concerned, this issue is done. But I believe that his ability to forgive himself will take much, much longer. I let him be.
Quote: So, I am wondering if my W's not seeing THIS me is because I don't show him to her, or because she truly wouldn't like him. That is interesting for me to think about.
Ah, you hit on something very important. I think you're on to something big here, GH. I know this has been true for me too.
I've also been guilty of projecting. I've made bold statements saying, "I wish my friends wrote me more often." Then I realized that just thinking about my friends didn't make me a correspondent, either. I've been trying--in small spurts--to fire off quick messages to friends and letting them know that I'm thinking of them. Who'd have thought that they'd write me back in great detail?
In order to get what I want, I have to make the effort to give it away without any expectations. Funny how that works!
I'll add one more thing to the list of things that we all want... that is to know that others accept my erring humanity, and the mistakes that I unintentionally make are not deal breakers in our R. I want the chance to be forgiven and to make things right...
So go forth and put your newfound knowledge to use, GH. One little exercise that keeps me on my toes every time is this... when I consider how the other person is doing something I don't like, I ask myself if it might be a fear-based reaction to something I'm doing. I'm often surprised at how often my ambiguity drags people into places they don't want to go with me.
UGH.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
ALL worthwhile points, and add greatly to my thoughts today, but I would love more on this one...
Quote: when I consider how the other person is doing something I don't like, I ask myself if it might be a fear-based reaction to something I'm doing. I'm often surprised at how often my ambiguity drags people into places they don't want to go with me.
I am pretty sure I understand it, but anything you could add about this would be appreciated...when you have time that is.
If she insists on talking about it now, be ready. Gentle and soft voice. Remember you do not have to finish the convo in 1 day, but stress that you trust the relationship to be able to handle this discussion. My brother (very direct and male) would liken it to the business world. He would preface the convo with, "Are you approachable today?" Speaking from a woman's perspective, that would be controlling and an affront, so do not try it. Just pick a time when she is more relaxed than not, but allow her to control some parts of the convo, like when it will happen. She will follow your lead in tone and pace. She needs control in this situation because whe may sense an attack comming, because she has behaved badly. She is waiting for this convo, and make it as painless as possible, will earn you big points. Check out Man are from Mars, Women are from Venus. There is a part in there about how to score points with wife, and how she can score points with you. Very true stuff!
Bomb 1/06 D dismissed 11/07, attempt reconciliation. Premature. Divorce final October 31, 2008. OW looks like bad history. Over. Still hopeful. Baby steps. In R with my X.
Ok, and I do that for the most part. It's just the idea of "scheduling" a talk that never works with her. It's either then or never. The only way I have found to semi-schedule the talks we have is to just bring it up at a "good" time (as you suggested) or just refuse to carry on the conversation until a better time comes along.
As for Mars/Venus, it is a cornerstone in my efforts to save my marriage. After DB/DR and along side 5 Love Languages, it has been invaluable to me. I LOVE that book.
You will most likely never "catch" her in those moments. Those moments are private and shameful, and even if you're the greatest guy on earth, she's probably not going to keep opening up this wound for others to see.
Betsey