Andy, Just want to let you know that I still followed your thread from time to time to see how far you have gone to “bring down the wall with the teaspoon”. It seems to me that you are getting there slowly. I’m there with you when it comes to emotional and physical intimacy issues. It might take me forever to get to that point. I’m trying to create the emotional intimacy with my wife right now and it is very hard. I don’t know how far I can go with that. My wife is somewhat open up for that but is still cautious about it.
In a sense, I think we will be dating again even though it might be awkward at first, but we will see. Like you said, “bring down the wall with the teaspoon”. In my case, I’m bringing down the wall with the toothpick because my teaspoon broke a while back and I couldn’t find the way to replace it yet. In a nutshell, sometimes I feel like giving up because it is so hard. So many times, I wasn’t even digging at all because I have no energy left to do so. I want to "bury" the past too but it is hard.
I agree with you completely. Part of my email on Monday was:
quote: I’m not so afraid of new ideas. Like I said, I do see some validity to what she says. It takes a fresh look at perimenopausal “moodiness”. I found it quite enlightening. Classical thinking is that swinging hormones cause swinging moods. The idea being that the bad feelings are caused by hormones. A woman goes periodically “crazy” at this time of life. The flip side of the coin is that these periods of “craziness” are really periods of clarity. If you’re interested in my view, I think that there are perhaps periods of thinking one way, and periods of thinking another way. The overall effect is clarity. Does that make sense?
But it’s hard to take, Matilda. I find it so hard to believe that I was such an horrible S.O.B., and for so long that it affected my W’s physical and mental health so adversely.
And, I’m trying to nurture the emotional part, but I don’t know how. My recollection of the past 10 years is that I was there for her emotionally. I thought I did a pretty good job of balancing my needs with my obligations to her, my family, and my financial responsibilities.
For the past year, I’ve been subverting my needs (most of the time) to hers. It seems to be working to a degree, but I sometimes get the impression that W figures I’m only doing it as a ploy to get what I want. Of course, she’s right – to a degree. I want my self-esteem back. I’ve always considered it to be one of my best features that I’m a giving, caring person. I’ve had to adjust my behavior to match that admittedly egotistical self-image. At the same time, I want love and respect from my W.
They say it takes one month of recovery for every year of a relationship. I don’t know when you start the clock, but I hope it doesn’t take another year or two.
Lily,
If you like Lauren’s comments on page 1, have a look at Struggling with Perceptions. There’s lotsa great stuff from him and others. Well, at least at the beginning – before it degenerated into “Struggling with Andy’s whining.”
LAN,
Nice to hear from you again. Sorry you don’t feel like you’ve found your spoon yet. I think that it may lie in the dating thing. Yeah, it’s awkward at first, and to be honest, dating isn’t a magic pill that fixes everything, either. My W and I have had a few “dates”, and they just aren’t what they used to be. But, ya gotta start somewhere, eh? Then ya gotta start again. And again. And again….
Maybe the spoon you use to bring down the wall can be used to bury the past?
I know it's hard. There's only so much you can do, and that's frustrating. Ultimately, it will be your wife's decision to become emotionally intimate again. There's just no getting around that. All you can do is continue to show her that you are available for that intimacy and that it is as important to you as the physical intimacy.
I really admire you for all that you're doing to achieve those goals. Don't give up!
Something I forgot in my post -- don't forget perceptions. You perceive that you were there for your W emotionally. She obviously feels otherwise -- or at least she is concentrating on the times when you weren't and can't remember the times when you were.
Of course you weren't such an S.O.B. to your wife. It's her mindset. Please try to understand that. I was in her place. Your W got to a place where it didn't matter what you did, everything was wrong, everything had an alterior motive (if my spelling is off, please excuse me. It's cocktail time!).
Does this sound familiar -- you'd try to hug her and she'd pull away, afraid that it would lead to something else? Did she not want to kiss you anymore? Did she not even want to hold your hand? If so, she was thinking you only wanted one thing, and it wasn't emotional intimacy.
It sounds like you guys are on the same team now, walking the same path. It'll come back. Believe me, it will.
quote:Originally posted by matilda: I know it's hard. There's only so much you can do, and that's frustrating. Ultimately, it will be your wife's decision to become emotionally intimate again. There's just no getting around that. All you can do is continue to show her that you are available for that intimacy and that it is as important to you as the physical intimacy.
I really admire you for all that you're doing to achieve those goals. Don't give up!
I really don’t want to give up, but I’m starting to wonder if that’s all I can do. Maybe this is as good as it gets. Maybe this is my success story. Like you said, we’re on the same team, walking the same path. Maybe it’s not the path I want, but maybe it’s not for me to decide which path we should take. Maybe we did take my path for the first half of our lives and it’s now W’s turn to decide.
All I can do is to continue to show her that I’m available for intimacy and that it’s as important to me as the physical intimacy. Maybe, but I just don’t know how anymore. I know exactly what you mean, Matilda when you describe that “she was thinking you only wanted one thing, and it wasn't emotional intimacy.” And I’ve changed my behavior to belay that perception.
But W knows me well enough to know that I’m not happy this way, and all the as-if behavior I can muster won’t fool her. In any case, I don’t want to fool her. Is that intimacy?
We have a friend (good ol’ TF from other threads) who is trying so hard to win back his W that he’s become a doormat. My W thinks that he’s gone too far, and I have to agree. Sometimes, I think that W feels like I’m doing the same thing.
Where’s the balance?
quote:Originally posted by matilda: It'll come back. Believe me, it will.
Andy, In '89 or '90, my H told me that I started "to change" after my dad died. That also tied into the period of time when my H was laid off; got stuck w a less than desirable job for a year and we had a fiancial control power play. I know I felt incredibly driven to take the financial load off my H. One little stress on top of another; one little disappointment after another tucked in the crevices.
Our dance of conflict didn't help us any. Two conflict avoiders are not going to clear the air in a healthy fashion.
Somewhere my hormonal problems kicked in and that wasn't noticed by my H. He just figured it was something else to stuff. I was one of those 'fix it myselfers' who tried really hard to take care of myself by not going to the doc's. I can remember feeling like the doer of redundant chores and feeling unwanted, unneeded, unloved. I think I could have simplly said 'taken for granted' but I got going with the 'un's', sorry.
I didn't want H to touch me cause it seemed like such another. . .demand . . .of my being. I can remember being alone on the stairs and saying to myself "something's gotta go. I guess I (the me of Lily) have to die. I began the slow, painful withdrawal from things I couldn't control.
It must have been 2 or 3 summers ago, both kids and H said I'd changed. I was experiencing a mild form of paranoia. I remember the things they thought were perculiar in my thinking seemed so right according to my perception.
Oh! The summer of 2000, after a particulary cruel R talk by my H, I officially --in a private manner--- emotionally withdrew from my H. It occurred to me to leave him but was never really a viable option so I internalized it (never dreaming that H wanted out as well!!!!!!!!!) Only when I was dx and started getting enough T3 to my brain was I able to snap out of the emotional withdrawal that I had toward my H.
Had he dropped the bomb 6 months before or even 1 week before he did, I would not have been able to cope.
Please hang in there. Your W doesn't know how blessed she is to have a H who is in a caring mode. You've done so much to give her body, mind, and soul the rest it needs. She's so lucky not to be alone in this.
Andy, I can't say your W's emotional state is tied to her hormones. Mine were. I can say that my H was not tuned in to me and I sure could have used his support. I am not casting blame, just observing.
When I think of the years that I caused me to suffer just because it never occurred to me that what was happening to me physically didn't have to be. Geez!
My W is a stay-at-home mom. Ever since our first child was born 16 years ago, she has had no financial input. She’s been the emotional caretaker for the entire family. She often told me that she felt all of the “un’s” that you described. I’ve always told her that despite what society may think about her role, I’ve always considered it vital. Maybe those were only empty words to her.
Her life with me has always been stressful. Four kids; the youngest being autistic. Except for the period of time when I was clinically depressed, I don’t believe that I’ve contributed to her stress to a large degree, but in retrospect, I should have done more to alleviate it. Maybe I leaned on her to fulfil my needs at a time when her needs were greater.
Also in retrospect, her hormones have been a factor. Several years ago, I had to rush her to hospital because her entire body felt like it was on fire. I mentioned this on another thread, and I believe it was Wintergirl who told me… Thyroid!
Well, every doctor she saw patted her on the head, sent her home, and told her it was nothing. The only doctor who gave her an explanation was an MD/acupuncturist who told her that her body was rebelling against the demands that I was putting on her. He said that men were takers, and I was no different.
About 1 ½ years ago, she started to “change.” I thought so, the kids thought so, but W didn’t think so.
Lily, like you, my W is a fix-it-yourselfer. I don’t believe she’ll have her hormones tested. After all, if her hormones are fluctuating, it’s only a natural change that women go through. If there’s a problem, it’s my ability to adapt to this.
So. Has her perception changed because of hormones? I think it probably has, and W probably recognizes this. Is it hormonal imbalance or the natural progression of her personality to which I must adapt?
I don’t know. All I know is that I’m having an hard time adapting. I also know that I have no choice.
Blame doesn’t enter into it. It’s just the way things are.
I've also been a stay-at-home mom all these years - with one exception. I started a business at home almost 16 years ago when my youngest was just 3 weeks old in order to take some of the financial stress off my H. So I had 3 kids under the age of 7, the youngest two were only 18 months apart, staying at home to raise them all the while trying to run a business. I would spend 14-16 hours a day for the first 5 of those years working, even on weekends. My H felt "neglected." That was when he had his first A. Did it ever occur to him that I was neglected? That I was doing everything for everyone else and had no time left for myself? I really thought he valued what I did. He always said he wanted me to stay home to raise the kids. That was what I wanted, too. And I really thought I was being a wonderful partner by trying to help in whatever way I could to take the financial stress off of him. Now to hear him say that he felt "neglected" and turned to another is not only heart wrenching, but deeply disappointing.
I'm not really sure where I'm going with all this. Maybe just needed to get it off my chest. However, one thing I'd like to say is to make sure your W knows just how much you value her for her role in bringing up your family. I truely believe this is the most difficult and most important job in the world. Just make sure she knows you feel that way, too, and truely appreciate her for it.
Hey Andy, I'm bout half-way thru. Just wanted to tell you that your voice has really changed. REALLY CHANGED!
Excellent for you. Makes this nutbird happy as heck. She sees it Mister. She sees it. She may not trust it a whole lot but I bet to herself she's a happy girl. At least happier.
Only thing I can toss in so far is don't make the mistake of trying to bury anything. It's there. Whatever it is it's there. It doesn't have to take up center stage in the living room but it's part of the history. Back corner of the basement is a good place...
Again, really glad to see this stuff. You've really pulled yourself around. Congratulations!
It’s amazing how we see our own sacrifices, but not our spouse’s, and we feel neglected, but we don’t see our own neglect of our spouse. It occurs to me that we make sacrifices and are so busy waiting for appreciation that we don’t see the sacrifices our SO is making. And, all the while, they’re doing the same thing.
Lily,
W mentioned to me that she has had her thyroid tested. Though that seems to rule out thyroid, I guess it still doesn’t rule out hormones. TF was over at our place yesterday, and mentioned that his W isn’t affectionate enough for his liking. He supposed it was hormones. My W said she’s too young for that, and implied that the lack of libido was very hard for her (i.e.: hard on my W). In the past, W has said that she doesn’t have sexual feelings towards me, and doesn’t miss them either. I don’t know it this extends to any kind of affection. Maybe we’re just kinda brother and sister. I don’t know. At least she recognizes that this has had an effect on OR.
Hi Fille,
Thanks for dropping by. Have I changed? I guess I have, but my sitch has changed enough to allow me to change.
I have no intention of burying the past. At least not wrt the lessons I have learned. All I’m referring to is that the present is so different than the past, and I want to use the present as a reference point for building our future. I want to bury the bad feelings – both hers and mine – and I don’t want to periodically dig ‘em up, dust ‘em off, and rehash ‘em.
The past is the route we used to get where we are, but regardless of how we got here, we have to deal with the here and now.
Ca, c'est comme ça, parce-ce que c'est comme ça. C'est tout.
