Andy, I can remember wearing awful things to bed and dodging H by saying stuff like I haven't showered and I want to be clean, etc. I started dressing in old stuff that really wasn't attractive. I rationalized that I was trying to save money but truth was I didn't want H getting any ideas. Why did I do this? H was not fulfilling me emotionally. I wanted his quality time and I wanted him to listen to my ideas and I wanted to have the stimulating conversations of our early years. He'd withdrawned those from me so I consciously withdrew my availability for sex. (He'd hurt me so' now I'd hurt him). I really did not want him to touch me. Bad move on my part. Then my libido took a hit as I slowly went hypothyroid. I also started gaining weight and feeling exhausted plus many other symptoms. I would advise any woman who suffers low libido to have a simple blood test done to rule out thyroid dysfunction. Once I returned to a healthy range I felt 110% different.
It has been difficult being the affection initiator/ sex initiator but somebody has to start building the bridge.
I don't know what to say that will help you. I just know that I want out of the emotional withdrawal phase of this M so I have to figure out what my H needs so that he will trust me again. Since the bomb we don't fight about prebomb stuff so I don't feel any conflict coming from H. He treats me like he would our sunday school teacher. I can approach him and not feel shut-out which frees me to do what I have to do to work in the R. As I work on us I realize H doesn't care (he told C that on a scale of 1 to 10 he's at a 7 as to his feelings of committment/passion toward me; I'd put it at a 4. Just goes to show perspectives. but---hey---he's here. I've lost my train of thought so I'll stop for now. Take care!
Our sits sound the same, but at different stages. For me, I’d love to pass on your suggestion. In fact, I’ve considered it. W is in peri-menopause. Her Dr. subscribed HRT, and it helps somewhat. Obviously, not in the libido area. But, I can’t ask her to go back and ask. This morning, she complained about a backache that she’s had for at least a week now. I suggested she se her Dr. Her response was “Why? She’d only prescribe pills.” Imagine her reaction if I asked her to see the Dr. about libido.
For you, I’d just caution against making assumptions. You say he doesn’t care. I’m sure he’s said a lot of stuff to indicate to you that he doesn’t either. Y’know something? My W thought I didn’t care either. She’s told me about a lot of things I said, and when I heard it from her, it sounded like I never cared. But I always did care. Oh how I regret some of the things I said!
One of the things I told her was that I didn’t want to “work” on OR. Sounds pretty clear, doesn’t it? But, my point was that OR was a joy to me. Not work.
As stupid as my statement was, it stuck, and I’m stuck with it’s consequences.
Hey, Lily, are you sure you're not me? My sitch exactly. H wasn't there for me emotionally (my perspective). He felt showing his love physically was all that mattered. For a MAN, yeah. For we women we need that emotional bond and intimacy more than the physical. We went round and round for years. He ended up thinking I didn't love him because I wasn't there for him physically; I felt I was being used because he only wanted me physically and forgot about the emotional stuff. Which, like you, all the emotional lovey-dovey stuff was there in the beginning. Anyway, I ended up rejecting him, too, and I also paid dearly.
So I've been doing pretty well in the meeting of the needs department, but now I'm starting to feel he's slipping back into his old pattern of "it's okay for me so it must be okay for you." I can't for the life of me get him to delve deep down inside and share with me is deepest feelings, fears, needs. He told the MC that he feels he can't ask me for anything right now, that he doesn't deserve to have me meet any of his needs. MC told him enough already. That's not healthy for our marriage.
I think I've really got to discuss this with him this weekend. It's getting very frustrating to be doing all the "need meeting," and getting nothing in return.
Andy,
I know you'll say forget it to this suggestion, but have you ever thought of just being a "little" more aggressive? Start with a back rub and run your fingers lightly up and down her arm. Even when I was really perturbed with H whenever he'd start just touching lightly so that it felt really good and I'd start relaxing, it would be very hard to make him stop. Also, sometimes my pride wouldn't let me "give in" enough to initiate or "let go." But if H was more persistent (and he usually was!) and took a lot of time (he's a very considerate lover), I'd end up getting into it. Just a thought! Maybe on some deeper level your W does want you to attempt to be close.
Also, DO NOT suggest W see doctor for low libedo. Bad, bad, bad. My H did that on numerous occasions and I was highly offended and angry. My reply, "Did you ever think it's YOUR problem and not mine?" (Way before DB'ing days).
Ya, know, Lily, my doc told me 4 months ago I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I'm not on thyroid medication yet cause I really don't have all the symptoms (except libedo is low). I just went in for another test yesterday and we'll see if the thyroid is still functioning before I decide to start medication. With what you said about it helping your libedo, though, maybe I'll call her and have her write me a prescription right now
No. I won’t forget it. I never toss advice aside. However, I think I’ll have to shelf it for now.
I enjoy running my fingers up and down her arm. But, I have to stop myself because it tickles and irritates her. I like to take my time, too. She doesn’t. Don’t know if it’s fatigue, but whether it is sex, or just cuddling, she acts like she’s waiting to get it over with.
But, when I back off, she seems to appreciate it. I’ve backed off a little lately, and lately, she’s been lingering a little – even pulling me towards her, when I hug/kiss her. I make sure I pull away before she does. Don’t want to overstay my welcome, so to speak. But, she is trying. In view of the fact that she’s trying not to lead me on, I think this is good. I don’t think its pride that makes her hold back. It seems to be more a matter of fear that I’ll start pushing again.
I have to admit that I’m having a hard time understanding the “emotional stuff.” W used to want the physical “stuff.” By that, I mean caresses, hugs, kisses, holding hands, etc. Not just sex. I thought we were supporting each other emotionally, too. I supported her when she felt criticized by her parents, by society (for being “only” a mother – not working), I told her ILY a lot.
But, she said that I did all of this in accordance with my schedule. On my terms. It makes it kinda hard for me to reintroduce any lovey-dovey stuff because it’s what I want.
I think you’re right, Matilda. I think that deep down, she wants to be closer, but at the same time, she doesn’t want to feel used.
I also think that she’s still afraid that if she gives me an inch, I’ll think I’m a ruler.
Are men all that different than women in regards to our emotional needs? Or, do we just show it differently?
For years, I felt that my W couldn't have cared less about how I am emotionally. She never asked me. She just felt I didn't care for a relationship with her because I didn't blurt out my emotions.
Men don't blurt out emotions. Men don't use conversation to transmit emotions (although some methods of talking are emotional. Men don't hear emotions in conversations. For men (at least the ones I know) conversation is for facts, action, decisions, critiques. Emotions are to be private, for a special person that knows how hard it is to show emotions and pulls them out with love and compassion.
On the other hand, women (at least the ones I know) use conversations for emotional expression. The want to know through this emotional conversation who and how you are. Unless their is an immediate problem to be resolved, facts, action, decisions and critiques appear to be BTW to the purpose of conversation. Emotional connection is their goal with conversation.
My dilemna is how to separate the emotions my W is telling me in conversation and ignoring the "facts, actions, decisions and critiques" she is giving me. It turns me OFF emotionally. During my "poor me" minutes, I wish she would just hold me before talking, so I can feel how she is feeling. THAT's IT: Men need to physically feel how their W is feeling to be able to emote in safety; women want us to emote before they are safe physically. Vicious circle.
It is hard, at least for me, to be patient while my W continues to physically withdraw, to find a way to emote to her that is safe for her and for me. Right now, I don't feel safe around my W and it is difficult to share anthing with her.
Go to --- About.com thyroid disease. Just about the best thyroid bulletin board I've found. I don't post there anymore 'cause I tend to gravatate to this site but I do check the info.
I have a little story re thyroid dysfunction. Last year I prepped our taxes but opted to stay home and rest while H took them to our CPA. He inquired as to my absence and H mentioned my being dx as hypo. The CPA shared that his wife was hypo and asked H to give me a message. The message was "take care of your health". He then gave H some advice. . ."don't even think about divorce". This was before H crossed the line, guys!
That little thyroid is the cause of many many woes. I even went through a period of paranoia (H and both kids had mentioned this too me. I was flabergasted that they didn't see things the way I viewed them. Looking back I realize how my perception was out- of- kilter. I am so thankful that I was dx and received that vital to life hormone BEFORE H had a meltdown.
Andy, don't mention low libido. Mention her fatigue. I had extremely dry skin and achy muscles and my sciatic nerve was out of whack. There must be at least 117 symptoms related to thyroid problems. Check out the symptoms and encourage her to have the blood test. Shoot! Depression is a sympton so maybe you should have the test run yourself!!!!!!!!
My H will have his tested when he goes for that 'Now that you're 50 exam.
Thank you both for your encouraging words posted to my thread!!!
Don’t have a lot of time to post, but I just wanna say a couple of things…
Laurin,
quote:Originally posted by Laurin: Are men all that different than women in regards to our emotional needs? Or, do we just show it differently?
I think the answer is both, and neither. There’s no doubt that there are genetic, cultural, hormonal, and a lot of other differences between men and women. These differences predispose us to act/feel in certain ways, but in the final analysis, we’re all individuals.
I don’t think we should fall into the trap of over-generalizing, but at the same time, the generalizations help us to understand, as long as we don’t jump to conclusions that “men are like this, women are like that”.
We also have to realize that these influences (and others) are not constant. If someone feels a certain way today, it doesn’t follow that they’ll feel the same way tomorrow.
Lily,
I wouldn’t dream of bringing up low libido. We had discussed it before (when she brought it up), and she did get defensive. I don’t think I can bring up the fatigue either, though. She has lotsa reasons to be tired. Stress, lack of sleep. I guess if we ever get into a discussion of her symptoms again (which include dry skin, hot flushes, moodiness, etc.), I might be able to ask her if she shouldn’t talk to her doctor about it again. But, I have to avoid anything that would look like finger-pointing.
W bought a book yesterday called The Wisdom of Menopause: Creating Physical and Emotional Health and Healing During the Change. She hasn’t started it yet, but I thumbed through it, and read the preview at amazon.com.
It seems to convey the attitude that women aren’t their true selves until the perimenipausal lifting of the hormonal veil. In other words, they are conditioned into the nurturing role by hormones and societal norms. Now that these hormones are no longer obscuring their vision, their inner wisdom surfaces to show them the injustice in their lives.
I’m going to have to read the rest of this book. The first part is pretty scary (for me), but my W has a good head on her shoulders, and hopefully will see that there’s more to it than that.
We have a friend (MF from previous threads) whose W has multiple sclerosis. She’s also going through menopause, and making MF’s life miserable.
Read some more of the book. Boy! it really is one-sided. But, having said that, I do see some truth in what she says.
I think that hormones affect us all, and perhaps women more than men. Does that mean that when the hormones disappear, the "true" person emerges?
I don't think it's that simple. I think that perhaps the hormones (along with societal influences) tend to make a woman more nurturing, and even feeling guilt for not being nurturing enough. So, she buries parts of herself to better fulfil this role. When the hormones diminish, these parts surface and become more important because of all of the years of being overshadowed by the “false” self.
But, I don't think that these menopausal attributes are the only true person. That view is too one-dimensional. It seems to me that it diminishes women who are in the first half of their lives. I can’t believe that a person is in a “hormonal fog” until they reach mid-life.
Anyway, I haven’t read the whole book yet, and it appears to get a little more balanced later. It does discuss hormones – including hypothyroidism (apparently hits 26% of menopausal women).
W started reading it this morning. I mentioned that I read some of it and found it interesting.
Anyway, I know this stuff sounds over-analytical. Perhaps it is. But, I’m feeling a little more detached in my analysis. I don’t think there’s much I can do right now except to keep up what I’ve been doing.
So, in a practical sense, there’s nothing more to analyze. Intellectually, I’m still learning.
How dry is your W's skin? My skin started being dry about 21 years ago. I thought it was due to our moving from the south to our present, colder climate. Our D was born in Mar (one of the times when your hormones go out of kilter) and the dry skin was here by October. I would use moisturisors and Head n Shoulders. My feet have those yukky dry skin/cracks. The day the nurse drew the blood for by TD test my arm itched and I was so embarrassed by the fine powdery dry skin that sorta floated off my arm. That symptom dissapeared the third day after I started meds. No dandruff either. No more itchy back (ah-h-h-h-h). Seems like you could find some way to lead into a discussion about thyroid dysfunction.
Her peri-m could go a little easier if the thyroid were ruled out as a possible cause for her back pain. Any wierd menstrual problems? That was what finally sent me to the doc. Wish I'd gone years earlier.
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