Actually, GM, thank you and, yes, it IS good she's asking for backrubs but I think it's ONLY because she KNOWS it won't lead anywhere. You see, in our life, sex almost ALWAYS started with a backrub. It was a comfort zone for both of us and in particular, sex started with a "slight grazing of the fingers". I'll never forget when OT almost to the "T" described my "oops, I touched a breast" technique.
Bottom line is that those days are over and W knows it. I told her so. If sex is going to start, I don't want it to be the same 'ole thing.
Of course, I HAVE tried a COUPLE times the "old" way but she let me know that it wasn't going to work.
I think the whole "back rub pathway to sex" routine is MUCH too passive for her. She wants more agressive, passionate initiation from me. I know OT, it sounds like I am either saying your lines for you, or that I am full of $hit to be saying this and not doing it. I KNOW what she wants as much as I know she doesn't want it RIGHT now, today, this minute...as much as I know that she WILL want it sooner than later.
Back to RB's post, I really just feel that my KNOWING what to do and wanting to do it is the first step. The next one WILL come and when it does...
I have never suggested that it is not important to build in physical intimacy into your R outside of sex. It is certainly true that it is an important component in a good M and clearly your W wants it.
But, foreplay that never goes anywhere is tedious, tiresome, and eventually depressing to those who want more, and your W is among those who want more.
I have also never suggested that you leave work this very instant and push your W down on the bed and engage in marital rape or something close to that.
The problem I have with your strategy is that you are building a sexless marriage. You are making physical touch asexual -- whatever you are doing, it is pretty clear that it is not creating sexually charged situations. At the same time, you are acting rather relentless in your pursuit of sex. You are constantly doing things to try to make it happen without either initiating it or talking about it. Your new physical touch campaign IS pretty much aimed at S E X right now. Until there is a healthy balance in your R, I'm not sure why it wouldn't be unless you are willing to go long-term without sex.
What your W probably would like is a physical R that includes both physical intimacy both inside and outside of the bedroom. She will never know that you will continue to touch her even when you are not after sex until you HAVE SEX and then continue to touch and kiss her otherwise.
Right now, sex is on the top of your mind. No doubt she knows this too.
Look, you are standing by the water cooler in case she drops by, but no pressure, right? Putting flowers on top of it, bringing in frosted glasses *in case* she wants a glass of water. You are not pressuring her though. You have no expectation of any of this leading to her getting a glass of water. Right...
It is the combination of relentless pursuit with the asexual lifestyle that is the problem.
Either be a sexual being in your R or not. THIS DOES NOT REQUIRE forcing your W into anything. This wishy washy never ending patience stuff is getting you nowhere. I am not talking about an extra week for her to recover from the DUI (though I do think that is a bit of BS), I am talking about your general passive approach here. I am really surprised that you are not finding that PM speaks to this issue. It isn't a manual on technique, after all, but on establishing a passionate connection in your R and overcoming the boredom of living with someone that feels like a sibling.
Your goal may not be to make your W feel like all your touch may as well be from her brother, but it sounds to me like that is what you are doing. I'd cringe too if what I really wanted was a firm hug, a deep kiss, groping hands and a stumble to the bed and all I ever got was a tentative peck here or there by someone who seems needy and hurt because I'm not interested in more pointless, going nowhere overtures.
Your thinking on this seems to be very black and white, at least in how you respond to others.... There is a lot of space between being passive and engaging in marital rape. There is a lot of space between no touch leading to sex and all touch leading to sex. There is a lot of space between constant and perhaps unending emotional coddling of your W and not giving a sh*t about her feelings.
How likely do you think it is that any women here are suggesting that you rape your wife, touch her only when you decide to rape her, and give no consideration to how that affects her? Pretty unlikely. Yet, that seems to be what you hear in large part. I don't really know why that is -- perhaps it is because intimacy is such an unresolved issue for you and the extreme interpretations make it easier not to delve too deeply into it. (Yes, *I know* you are trying and you really are doing a great job at looking at yourself and making progress.)
You are doing too much in a very passive way that is unlikely to get you anywhere and accepting too little in return. You are doing things that make you feel bad and rejected. How can that be good for anyone?
Anyway, you are wrong about something you said somewhere. This is not about fixing your W and finding her magic button. This is about fixing yourself and being healthy sexual agent whether or not she comes around or not.
I think the whole "back rub pathway to sex" routine is MUCH too passive for her. She wants more agressive, passionate initiation from me.
Excellent So, you should not be surprised, then, that you aren't getting anywhere since you are not giving her what you belive she wants... That is your choice, so embrace the consequences.
Here's the problem that exists (well other than me being too passive and having DEEP intimacy issues that is) between yours and my thinking OT.
Quote: But, foreplay that never goes anywhere is tedious, tiresome, and eventually depressing to those who want more, and your W is among those who want more.
Really? How do you know that? Ok, you and I ASSUME that she had a PA. What if she did not. What IF she really DID want "other things" from him.
Yes, I know my W wants "more" but you seem SO convinced that she is this pent-up ball of sexual being that is crying out for release. If that were the case, then why the hell doesn't she EVER, and I mean E-V-E-R (ok, maybe two or three times in ten years) show any of that to me? You can say all you want about my being passive but on those RARE occasions when she did show ANYTHING like that to me, I responded with more passion and desire than you could imagine. Sure, maybe that scared her or something, but I would LOVE for HER to show me anything and SHE knows it. To me, her behavior over the years, and ESPECIALLY NOW is much of the same "if he loves me, he'll know what to do" crap that ruins marriages. SHE knows it would take almost NOTHING on her part to incite MUCH more out of me. She KNOWS it would take the slightest sign from her and she would GET the passion she wants. I am not asking for much at all. A little sound here, a little touch there, ANYTHING that would give a guy the idea that she liked what was happening and wanted more. Hey, better yet, actually opening her mouth and telling me what she wants.
OT, I guess what I fail to get, and I think sadly if you are right about my W, it may be the eventual downfall of my marriage, is that I have to be the one to make all this happen without any help from her. I have to do this without ANY freaking sign from her that she wants it. I KNOW that hasn't been the case with other women I have been with. They have at least done the minimum of showing me that they enjoyed whatever I was doing, whether that be kissing them (i.e. kissing me back) or massaging them, or touching them sexually. Some actually WOULD speak up and TELL me what they liked and you know what, they ended up GETTING THAT. The only time W really lets me know she enjoys anything is when we are actually having inercourse or maybe some parts of foreplay. She wants me to just know what she wants, what she likes, and more importantly, WHEN she wants it. Too much mind reading for me, especially right now.
And, BTW, WTH is that? How come in this respect, it seems like she gets a free pass for life on open communication and that mind-reading is the norm. I thought I wasn't supposed to do that.
Basically, I feel like I want to give up. All your talk of rape and such is interesting, but never what I suggested and if that's what you are getting out of what I am saying, I have lost my ability to effectivly communicate. I KNOW there is middle ground. I have tried to go there AND HAVE BEEN SHUT DOWN COUNTLESS TIMES.
I HAVE TRIED TO KISS HER. I HAVE "GROPED HER". HAVE TRIED TO INITIATE SEX AND SHE DOES NOT WANT IT, OR AT LEAST WITH ME ANYWAY.
I don't really know how many different ways I can say it.
I am just so tired. You have this picture of my W that I guess is equal parts you/your experience as a woman, PM/reading, what I have posted and the fact that she probably just had a PA. I GET why you feel the way you do and what I have done, all this "non-sexual" stuff is almost a direct result of your encouragment. I thought I was getting it, but clearly I am not. I just can't take thinking about this all the time, and not today.
As I said, I am really tired. I don't WANT to give up, but I can't do this today. I need a break. It's my son's little graduation ceremony today and we are doing some fun stuff as a family tonight. I want to enjoy that and really let this go for now.
If I am taking the steps towards to end of my marriage because I don't want to do this alone and if my W won't participate, then so be it...if she doesn't "have to" participate, or even communicate because she is a woman and I, as the "man" have to do all this (because OT, that's what I keep hearing over and over again, maybe because that's what you are saying and maybe because of my own issues, I don't know), then I want out. I want someone who is willing to be an equal partner in intimacy, not just wanting me to do all the work while she lays back and feels loved, appreciated and worshiped. I want some of that too and I'll be damned if I settle for less which is what I am getting now, and really have gotten all my marriage. Maybe this is all my fault, which is how I read what you are saying, and maybe it's not but again, I am tired and I need a rest from this "whatever it is" I am doing because you're right, it isn't working.
Once again, OT, I know you are trying to help, and I KNOW it's my issues that make me feel attacked but I do. I don't blame you. I know you're trying to help. I really do, but I feel WAY too much pressure right now. I feel like even if I did manage to get W in a "mood" my thing wouldn't even work, lol. This has gone too far and I think I just need to back off and give myself a break.
I WILL keep reading PM, actually make it a point tonight to read a lot, and I WILL keep thinking (eventually) about what you are trying to get me to understand. For now, it's happy time...
I am now going to put a smile on my face, imagine my S6 walking down that isle and getting his certficicate and enjoy the rest of my day.
GH
P.S. And no, I didn't miss the part about how I am doing well with the self-analysis...thanks for that.
Re, the marital rape comment. When it is suggested that you be more sexually assertive, you have come back several times with a knee jerk response that "no means no." Of course you should not coerce your W into sex. But being more sexually assertive does not entail a denial of "no means no."
as the "man" have to do all this (because OT, that's what I keep hearing over and over again, maybe because that's what you are saying and maybe because of my own issues, I don't know), then I want out. I want someone who is willing to be an equal partner in intimacy, not just wanting me to do all the work while she lays back and feels loved, appreciated and worshiped.
You seem to think this is all your job. I certainly don't think so.
Indeed, I think it is a big problem that you are willing to continue in the way you have been without setting and enforcing any boundaries with respect to what is acceptable treatment for YOU.
In the last few days, on and off, you've sounded like you will only be willing to enforce any boundaries here if you give up on your M. Perhaps something to focus on is how to not subordinate your own needs in the context of your M.
Your W clearly has her own issues about sexual expression. She needs to deal with them. However, she is unlikely to as long as you continue to accept the status quo from her.
I haven't heard anyone suggest that what your W is or is not (in this case) doing is acceptable. YOU are the one accepting it, not us.
BTW, we were crossposting, so I expect you missed my post about MB's car. I thought you gave her some great advice. Try to apply the kind of self-respecting boundary setting that you recommended to her to your own sitch.
Anyway, it does sound like you could use a break from this. Maybe you can set it all aside for a few days and give yourself some space to settle down and find some clarity about what works for you.
SomeONE wrote this over on MB's thread....maybe you would find it helpful in your sitch.
Quote: The point is that we want to learn to directly communicate with our spouses, good, bad, or ugly, WITHOUT fear of how they will react. We need to learn to be honest without hedging that honesty on what their reaction may be. We are not them and thinking we know how they'll react to everything we say is a form of control.
No, I got the compliment about mama's post. Thanks, and thanks too for the well wishing.
I will take time, one last time today (sure it is...lol) to address your thoughts...oh WTH, you KNOW I can't resist...
Quote: Re, the marital rape comment. When it is suggested that you be more sexually assertive, you have come back several times with a knee jerk response that "no means no." Of course you should not coerce your W into sex. But being more sexually assertive does not entail a denial of "no means no."
Ok, then let me be VERY clear. My W has said no repeatedly since this whole "campaign" of mine started. We have come to points where something more could have happened and she either actually physically pushed me away, or said no. WHENEVER I have gotten to that point, the line if you will, that exists between asexual, as you call it, touching and something more than that, things get tense. When they go over the line, she shuts me down. What more can I do? Cross the line with a running start? No means no, and she is telling my no...for now. She has SAID she will tell me know for now and that the answer will not ALWAYS be no but she needs more time. I THOUGHT I was just respecting that but again, you seem to suggest that she is full of $hit and wants me to do more even though everything she says and does communicates "no" to me.
To clarify a bit, in the past, she was pretty clear when she wanted sex. She WOULD let me know. I think when I posted that she never let me know, I was venting and actually not being honest. She did let me know most of the time, when I was doing something and she wanted more. I have to admit that. I don't know why I said otherwise. I guess I was projecting NOW, into the past. I also think what I was getting at is that she never initiates.
SO, anyway, she knows how to let ME know when she wants something, or at least she should. She is not doing that right now.
Quote: You seem to think this is all your job. I certainly don't think so.
Ok, well it sounds like it to me. It sounds like you are portraying her as a victim here, unable to express HER passion or do ANYTHING in this situation but sit back and see what I do. I know the reality of the sitch is that she may not WANT to do anything, but she COULD and she knows it. Its what's stopping her that interests me.
Quote: Indeed, I think it is a big problem that you are willing to continue in the way you have been without setting and enforcing any boundaries with respect to what is acceptable treatment for YOU.
I agree, it IS a big problem, and has been for a long time in my marriage. I HAS to change at some point. I never really knew it was unaccptable, or rather, denied that it was until now.
Quote: In the last few days, on and off, you've sounded like you will only be willing to enforce any boundaries here if you give up on your M. Perhaps something to focus on is how to not subordinate your own needs in the context of your M.
Interesting, and really the point that I wanted to reply to the most. I didn't really realize I was doing that. Damn, I am guilty of doing the same thing as I ranted about earlier. See, it's hard to take your own advice. Thank you SO much for pointing that out. Of course I need to figure out all this in the context of my marriage. That's why my marriage is doing badly right now; because we never figured ANY of this stuff out and just let it go until my W decided the only way to get what she wanted was to go outside the context of the marriage...damn, sounds familiar.
Quote:
Your W clearly has her own issues about sexual expression. She needs to deal with them. However, she is unlikely to as long as you continue to accept the status quo from her.
Ok, I get this. Give me time. I will get it sooner or later.
Quote: I haven't heard anyone suggest that what your W is or is not (in this case) doing is acceptable. YOU are the one accepting it, not us.
I disagree. You are suggesting that my W's stance of being unhappy but doing nothing WITH ME about it is ok. You are suggesting that she has a right to be passive because it's my role to be agressive. You have said that my lack of intimacy and initiation is a problem here, almost NEVER adressing anything about here. To actually go against myself, I understand that you are talking to ME and trying to help ME take action here, but I, well, I just feel like there is room for BOTH of us to work on this and up to now, I don't see her part, nor do I see you ever suggesting that she do anything but wait until I "get it" or just leave me. Isn't there any middle ground THERE?
Quote:
Anyway, it does sound like you could use a break from this. Maybe you can set it all aside for a few days and give yourself some space to settle down and find some clarity about what works for you.
OT, I have to. If I go into tonight, our traditional "sex" night, with these thoughts, they'll turn into expectations and then all hell WILL break loose and I DON'T want that. I know I need to assert myself but I'd rather not do it from a position of complete emotional breakdown, which is where I will likely be going through another night of "nothing" from her. I am letting go for now...I'll pick it back up later.
Ok, NM, YOU SUCK...lol. Yea, yea, yea. I know. I am notorious for not following my own advice. To be fair to myself, I KNOW that, I just have a hard time overcomming 30+ years of doing the opposite.
Anyway, thanks for using my words against me. Don't you have to read me my rights before that?
the "old" way but she let me know that it wasn't going to work. 
So, you should not be surprised, then, that you aren't getting anywhere since you are not giving her what you belive she wants... That is your choice, so embrace the consequences.
