GH, my w was the same way about ML. didnt want to go there. i just keep being persentant. gave her alot of complements, did unwanting touching, the whole bit. she refused and refused, but i kept trying. what i finally did was i went and got massage oils and told her that i wanted to help her relieve her stress, gave her several massages before i got to the point of ML to her. if and when you do convince her to ML, you have to do an 180 in that department. what ever you did in the past, you can not do now. i know its working for me, but it is slow moving with m w and she keeps trying to talk herself out of the good feelings she is having, but i know for a fact that if i didnt get the ML part back in my sitch we would not be even close to where we are now. so you really need to try to get this going with her, some way, use probring questions, find out what her hot buttons are and then push them and push them, she will come around. she deffenatley wants to feel sexual with you, but she might be affaid how you will react, because of the A. my w told me she didnt think i could ever ML to her again because of the fact that she was with another man, your wife might be feeling the same way as mine, i dont know, but you have to show her that is not the case, just make sure you give her great pleasure, before anything else, make sure its a mind blowing experience for her. read some books on how to pleasure a women, use different tech. im not saying you dont already know how to pleasure her, just do something different, something she would not expect.
I'd suggest that you become a sexual being in your M. Make sure that you are sexually satisfied. Make it clear to H that you are doing so and clear that you would prefer it to be a cooperative project that you be sexually satisfied rather than a solo endeavor. Let H know that a long-term sexless marriage is not in your future.
Treat yourself like a passionate woman, take care of yourself, buy some new lingerie and throw out the granny pants. Be aware of yourself as a woman in social settings. Invest in some decent sex toys.
Quit being an asexual roommate to make your H more comfortable unless you are willing to accept that role as one that you have chosen and embrace.
OT, thanks so much for responding. I was actually just on the Lovers Lane website ordering some "things" for me. The granny panties have been going for a while now. I have invested in quite a bit of sexy underwear (feels great since I have lost so much weight on the LBS diet). I am also learning to not be my H's "mother". Something that is very difficult for me to do - this is my 180. I have a tendency to want to do things for everyone, to take care of them. It's time to let go, and take care of me!!
OK...so, perhaps you're building up the "first time" way too much? If you think she wants to be pursued, then pursue, simply. Send her an email that says, Hey, I passed you in the kitchen this morning and I noticed XYZ...you looked sexy." Every day, find something - little, big, whatever - someTHING to make her stop and think. Tell her you had a dream about her...and let the unspoken hang there...
I still also think that telling her what your NOT going to do will work in some ways. Not only will it say to her that she's not expected to "put out", it may incite her at the same time. Make any sense? I'm not so good with all the psycho-babble talk, but perhaps a little reverse psychology would be in good order here? Ya know, the muscle head she was seeing probably said those old corny lines. Sometimes as corny and as stupid as they are, they do work. And of course, it will be awkward for you at first. Anything new is awkward, but as you keep doing it, it will become easier and you may find yourself enjoying finding different ways to spark her interest. There's a lot of power in saying the words "I want you" to someone.
Or, you can be direct. Tell her. You can validate her feelings and still tell her how YOU are feeling. W - I know you're going through a rough time, however I am too. If we're in this together, then I need to tell you that your sexual rejection of me hurts. Can you tell me why you don't want to? Share your feelings about it with her. Ask her for her thoughts on the subject. SEnd it via email if you would rather...you do a great job of writing here, maybe you'd be able to tell her better in an email, and it may be easier for her to respond to you more honestly.
I think there's a lot of confusion between sex and intimacy. Each of these means different things to different people. And to some, they are one and the same. I think to you, they are two different & distinct things, yet that does not mean they both can't be worked on at the same time. And I think games & toys are 2 different things. Toys, well, you USE them for a particular act. The game, is that - a game. The game wouldn't necessarily result in ML. As a matter of fact, it shouldn't be used for that purpose at all. It should be used to learn new things about each other. Perhaps leading to more intimacy.
No, a LOT bit defensive...and without spell checking so beware...lol.
Quote: I thinkthe most important thing you can focus on is how to set meaningful boundaries without viewing them as an attack or ultimatum or whatever against another person. I see in your posts about your own sitch and to others that you are very reluctant to set clear boundaries about what you are and are not willing to accept in your interactions with others.
I don't understand this. What would I be setting a boundary "against"? Do you mean I set a boundary that I am unwilling to live in a sexless marriage and if my W is not going to participate in solving that issue NOW, that I consider that reason to walk away, or just put EVERYTHING else on hold until that becomes part of the equation?
I KNOW that there are some people, I even think PM was one place I read this, that think that being friends can actually HURT a marriage but this is one place where, even if it kills my chances of being married to this woman, or any other, I am going to make up my own mind. I see what we are doing now as building towards something, something MORE passionate, certainly more open, and more long-lasting.
Again, I don' really know what the boundary would be in this case. It was clear when the affair was going on what boundaries I could and should set, but not now.
Please help with this,
Quote: Of course there are better and worse times for things. Clearly, pursuing a romantic R with W when she was out of the M would be inappropriate. Only you can tell if the stress of the DUI problem (which you are curiously minimizing right now, but sounds like it is really a symptom of your W's longstanding pattern of using alcohol to cope with her unhappiness) is making this a bad time. A couple of weeks isn't going to make a difference.
I agree and disagree. I DO think this DUI stress and how W is handling it may be a continuation of her ongoing issue with alcohol but I disagree that a couple days/weeks won't make a difference. That amount of time has made GREAT amounts of difference in the recent past and I have no doubt that it CAN now. I guess I just don't see the need for hurrying. If my W is going to leave me this week because I don't DO something, then let her go. If it is SO fragile as to not last another week (or two as you say) then I am VERY wrong about where things stand and I will throw my hands up and give up. I don't think I am wrong.
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However, the emotional coddling is more of the same from you. What will be different is if you stop it in a few weeks as you suggested.
What does this mean. Again, I am genuinely confused. Does this mean worrying about how she will emotionally react to something I say or do?
Quote:
I emotionally coddled my XH for years and it did no one any good. He probably felt emasculated. I would expect your W also feels not much like a real woman with you. Her OM probably treated her as a strong passionate independent woman and dealt with her as an adult who could handle things with little BS.
Ok, which came first, the chicken or the egg? I STRONGLY suspect that she BEHAVED like a strong, passionate independent woman with him and handled her "BS" around me. She said as much. She was NOT being open and honest with him and hid a LOT about herself from him because it made it easier that way.
So, yes, she may feel like "less" of a woman with me but she acts like less of one too. Do I simply stop being there for her when she asks me to be? Because she always ASKS me to be, I don't just hover around, waiting to be needed.
Quote:
Your W has told you over and over again that she prefers you to be direct. You get better results when you are direct. Yet, you aren't on this issue. I doubt that OM had much of a problem telling her what he wanted sexually and eventually what he would require to continue the A, even while she was saying NO to him and protesting.
Ok, I'll leave my eariler boundary question but I guess this addresses it. I HAVE been direct, just not in the last couple weeks. I HAVE told her that things need to be different than before. I HAVE told her I want/need more than even what we had before all this. I have told her more than once. Why beat the dead horse some more. I feel like I am CRYSTAL clear about what I want, both in my words and in my actions. I feel like I need to know where her head is at right now because since I think I am being pretty direct with her, she is not doing any such thing with me. Maybe that's another thing that needs to be a boundary for me, but then again, boundary is a weird term for that, maybe something I ask her for...I don't know.
Quote: She has even told you that she despises the status quo.
Yes. Actually I TOLD her this first and she agreed. That opened her up to telling me she was unhappy about the "quo", status or otherwise.
Quote:
Has she told you that she doesn't want to address this for a few weeks?
Well, the last time I suggested talking about it she said "not right now" and has said that she wishes all this "stuff" wasn't happening right now because there were "other" things, I assume but should have asked I guess, that she wanted to be thinking about and working on. She DID ask for more time, yes.
Quote:
Has she told you that living in a sexless M makes her life less stressful?
No, but revisiting our sex life for the first time after 8 months and possible a PA which I think she would still want to admit to before ML with me would be VERY stressful I think. That seems to be a no-brainer to me but then again, I am not really sure of much these days.
Quote:
Have you shared with her your feelings? What you want? What you are willing to accept? What your actions will be in different scenarios? Do you know your own boundaries here at all?
Yes, I have shared my feelings, but as I said, not for a couple weeks. She knows what I want, and she KNOWS I will not accept this going on forever. Maybe she doesn't KNOW it as much as I'd like because I have not really done anything about it, like leave or cut off all contact with her, but she has heard it from me. She knows this is not something I want to do forever.
What different scenarios? Another week without kissing? Another month without sex? I don't feel scenarios like that REQUIRE action. Why all the emphsis on the time-frame? I don't get that at all. I am still seeing progress and I guess because of that, I think my current actions are working to a certain degree. I guess you disagree.
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My suggestion is to continue to read PM and to talk to your C.
I am planning to do both. Like I said, PM is loosing me a bit right now because it is getting into specific sexual things that may be GREAT groundwork for a future sex life with my W, but right now, I am looking for more "relationship" things.
I will cast aside my reluctance to reading right now because I fully accept that what I am reading now CAN help so back I go...
As for C, I can't see her for another couple weeks
Quote:
BTW, I think your W is well aware that there is a problem with sex in your M and is not happy with it. Perhaps she would read PM with you. You are the one choosing to try to manage the whole problem on your own without sharing in it with your W as a romantic P.
OT, not to blame you or anything, because I KNOW I am the one making the decisions here, but you are the one who preached to me for so long to "not be in the R" any more than my W. To me, that is what I am doing. To me, we are NOT in a romantic R. To me, I am courting my W to GET her into a romatic R with me. Until she reciprocates, I will not consider it any more than a "rebuilding" phase.
As I said before, that does NOT mean I will not talk to her. Actually, I think I NEED to talk to her to, as you say "share it with her" but not as a current romantic partner, but a former one who I am trying to reconnect with.
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How far do you think you would have gotten without the bomb? Your W hasn't gotten the bomb and your continued acceptance of the status quo and emotional coddling actively contributes to her staying stuck. Your reluctance to explore, define, and maintain your own boundaries is keeping you stuck.
Point WELL taken, but I do think W has had a mini-bomb of a differnt sort when her A went bad and OM didn't fix "her" problems. I think she now knows that there is work that CAN be done with us.
Back to your original question, I don't think I would have gotten far at all, actually I DIDN't get very far in our entire marriage so...
Yes, I may be stuck, but I won't be for long. I am just having a terrible time adjusting to this new way of thinking concerning an issue (intimacy) that may have been, may BE the biggest one of our marriage. I will think a lot about what you are saying.
Quote: Do you know what? Your M might not work out. Your W might never turn into the romantic P that you want. Or, things might work out. Your W might become the full participant and partner in your M that you want. You can either figure out which way things will go or you can stay stuck in an empty life until your W determines which way they will go.
Choose to act from integrity rather than fear.
I think I am acting from integrity. I just think I don't know the right things to do and thus are acting out of ignorance as well. As I am learning, I am trying to weave these new things into my outlook. It's VERY hard going but I think I am getting there.
OT, I am truly sorry for being defensive. It's just hard to hear that you are not doing enough when you think you are giving all you have and then some. I AM trying, and I AM going to do what I have to do. I think more than my W, I NEED time to process all this and DO what I need to do. Maybe THAT'S the real truth.
Quote: OK...so, perhaps you're building up the "first time" way too much? If you think she wants to be pursued, then pursue, simply. Send her an email that says, Hey, I passed you in the kitchen this morning and I noticed XYZ...you looked sexy." Every day, find something - little, big, whatever - someTHING to make her stop and think. Tell her you had a dream about her...and let the unspoken hang there...
I do ALL of these things. This is the 180 that I did. I started the daily compliments, the little touches, the emails, ALL of it. I do that and still...nothing.
Quote: still also think that telling her what your NOT going to do will work in some ways. Not only will it say to her that she's not expected to "put out", it may incite her at the same time. Make any sense?
Yes it does. I don't do much of this because as OT constantly says, I am not trying necessarily to "desexualize" everything, just not have it lead directly to sex, right then and there.
Quote: There's a lot of power in saying the words "I want you" to someone.
Then again, I say that ALL the time too and I think it's lost it's power. Too much of ANYTHING is a bad thing. I have pulled back on this. I think it's almost the same as ILY to my W.
Quote: Or, you can be direct. Tell her. You can validate her feelings and still tell her how YOU are feeling. W - I know you're going through a rough time, however I am too. If we're in this together, then I need to tell you that your sexual rejection of me hurts. Can you tell me why you don't want to? Share your feelings about it with her. Ask her for her thoughts on the subject. SEnd it via email if you would rather...you do a great job of writing here, maybe you'd be able to tell her better in an email, and it may be easier for her to respond to you more honestly.
THIS is exactly what I mean to do, and what, much to the dismay of OT, I am waiting to do because I want her to be able to be focused on what I want to talk about, not this other stress, and as I said, I KNOW that stress will be gone VERY soon and no, I will not just allow that to be replaced by some other crisis. This NEEDS to be done, and OT, if you are looking for a boundary from me, here it is. I NEED W to tell open up to me as NM suggests, and I to her. If we can't do that, then i need to pull back and cease all my "actions" because until I know W is ready to participate, I am not going to do everything on my own for many more weeks/months.
Quote: I think there's a lot of confusion between sex and intimacy. Each of these means different things to different people. And to some, they are one and the same. I think to you, they are two different & distinct things, yet that does not mean they both can't be worked on at the same time. And I think games & toys are 2 different things. Toys, well, you USE them for a particular act. The game, is that - a game. The game wouldn't necessarily result in ML. As a matter of fact, it shouldn't be used for that purpose at all. It should be used to learn new things about each other. Perhaps leading to more intimacy.
NM, that's the problem in a nutshell. I never understood there was a difference, or even really thought much about intimacy. My W apparently did. I know sex was intimate to my W, but the way it became the only think I ever seemed to want from her physically, I think she started to see it as something devoid of passion/intimacy and just an act that was fun every once in awhile but a chore most of the time.
I blame myself for a lot of that and as I have said over and over, I now know the error of my ways and I KNOW how to behave in a way that shows W how much I want her, both in a daily, intimate way, and a sexual way, and that the two CAN be one in the same once again.
NM -- **GREAT JOB** communicating about your weirdness :-) I bet it did catch him off guard. It is great when you can report on yourself without trying to predict and/or manage his response to your report. That, actually, allows for increased intimacy because it allows you to be much more authentic in any R between you and SO.
Ok OT, backhanded point WELL taken. I think I am going to go away very confused and unsure of myself. I was SO sure I had a plan that was going to work. I guess not. I see what you are saying and understand where I have gone wrong. Damn.
Quote: Actually, I think in my sitch, yes; in yours, a resounding NO. I firmly believe that in your sitch that your W needs (wants?) to be shown you can be passionate.
Know what ladies, maybe the simple, sad truth is that I can't be passionate because I just don't understand what that means I am supposed to do right now. I just don't. I try to kiss her, and I mean really physically try and she turns away or pulls away. I try to talk about what I want and she changes the subject.
WTF!!!!!!! Is the only thing you guys think I should do is just rip off her clothes and "do" her? Is THAT what you mean? Because if it's anything short of that or having a R talk, something that I have tried not to do, I THOUGHT I was already doing that.
ISN'T THERE ANY room in this for HER to be the issue here and NOT what I am doing or not doing. I mean, I feel like a total waste of a man the way you are saying I am not being "passionate". I f--king AM being passionate, 1000% more than I ever was before and it's MAKING NO VISIBLE DIFFERENCE in her. Maybe it is but I am just not seeing it. I don't know anymore. Maybe you are right and this just won't work because if I have to be much more "different" than I have already started to be, then maybe I don't belong in this marriage. I need to be me with some changes, not an entirely different man.
I AM passionate but have done a HORRIBLE job of expressing that to my W over the past several years. I DID do a good job early on, and that's what I am back to now. It worked for her back then (I think) and I guess I am just wrong to think it may now.
Please, forgive my outbursts today. I am feeling it a LOT today and maybe it's best if I don't post so much at the moment.
OT, NM, I WILL think about what you are saying. Yes, it hurts a LOT, and I do disagree with you on a lot of your points but I know you are trying to help and so I will carefully consider what you are saying.
Thank you both, even if it seems like I didn't like your posts, you know I needed to hear it.
Move on folks, there's nothing more to see here...move along...lol.
Please, never mind me today. I am just getting myself all worked up. I am going to go and listen to some music or something to take my mind off of this and revisit it later when I am not so full of hostility and defensivness. I thought I had learned how to control that.
