Quote: I know this sounds like I am some sort of freak, but there are other ways that we can make ourselves feel good ,ya know what I mean?
Do I ever...lol.
I agree with you that pressure may not be a good thing, most of the time. Then there are times like the past few days when everything SEEMS ripe for SOMETHING to happen and she still pulls back when I get too close.
Part of me even wonders if the OM is still in the picture. I almost KNOW he's not but it's just confounding that everything else could seem SO normal but when it comes to physical expressions of love, nil, nada, nothing.
It is a brand of frustration I should be used to as I have suffered it all my marriage but that's where DB is a double edged sword. I have now learned to want more for myself and value myself enough to think I deserve more. Problem is I am not yet in a situation where I am likely to GET more, at least right now.
So, I go take more pictures...maybe some abstract ones that are full of angst and tension...like me, lol.
Yes, I believe things are going better with the person on the other thread. Lots of DBers have been very supportive which is great to see. I don't really follow anything in newcomers, I just happened to see that thread that night.
Anyway, how is PM going? Have you read the case about the couple stuck in the asexual marriage and how counterproductive the hands off + space approach is?
I think you were right when you posted on mamabear's thread: your W does not see you as a sexual being. This is likely a long standing problem, compounded by the guilt.
I'm glad to see that you are still managing W's psychic well-being so carefully (sarcasm). I'll be interested to see what happens after the "few weeks" you think it will take W to be OK, given that her psychic fragility has controlled so much of what you do throughout your M.
Maybe she doesn't see you as a sexual being because you parent her too much. This is much different that being a supportive and nurturing romantic P.
To be honest, if I were your W, after having an A with some kind of passion in it, I'd again be seriously looking at leaving at this point and probably making a plan to do so, maybe a few years down the road. You know, do it the "right" way.... But, I doubt I'd have my head in the M very much. Having found myself sexually reawakened and then put back in bed with what feels like a sibling, I'd be unwilling to accept giving up my sexual self for the long haul again.
You are playing half the game here in which you are an asexual bedwarmer. All this does is maintain the status quo. I don't think that is going to get you anywhere.
Quote: To be honest, if I were your W, after having an A with some kind of passion in it, I'd again be seriously looking at leaving at this point and probably making a plan to do so, maybe a few years down the road. You know, do it the "right" way.... But, I doubt I'd have my head in the M very much. Having found myself sexually reawakened and then put back in bed with what feels like a sibling, I'd be unwilling to accept giving up my sexual self for the long haul again.
You are playing half the game here in which you are an asexual bedwarmer. All this does is maintain the status quo. I don't think that is going to get you anywhere.
OT, that is brutally honest. I've often thought the same of my sitch. If our spouse's are possibly feeling this way, do you have any suggestions for things that we can do or do you feel we are just spinning our wheels and our M's are over?
Really, your post does not motivate me this morning. If anything I am motivated to just walk away because I think I am doing 100% different things, I am NOT hands off, I am NOT giving her "space" in terms of physical interaction but how the f--k do you act passionate towards someone who GIVES YOU NOTHING BACK??????? Yea, I know about self-validation and maybe that's the key to what you are suggesting but I guess I just don't get that yet.
I am beyond my wits end, and no, I have not gotten to that part of PM you are talking about. One thing I notice in PM so far is that much of it seems to be about TWO people who know there is a problem and are working on solving it. That is not the case in my marriage. I am the only one doing any work, and despite what you may think, I AM actually doing SOMETHING, just not what I guess you think I should be doing.
Please, without the sarcasm, tell me what you think I should do today...tonight...this minute to change my situation because like I said, and maybe have not accuratly posted, I AM DOING things MUCH differently than ever before in my relationship...any relationship I have ever had.
I used to go DAYS without touching my W in any way until the weekend and then only when I wanted sex. Sure, I would hug her goodbye and such but beyond that, nothing. I guess after 10 years she finally noticed...so did I. I know you think that the "asexual" way I am doing things, or at least the way it comes across here as asexual, is totally wrong but from where I sit, I don't see what I am doing as asexual at all, just not directly leading to sex. My touches are made with passion and intent. I KNOW she feels my desire, my love in what I am doing but she returns NONE of it, which is the same as it has always been in our marriage, or at least for most of it.
You have to start somewhere and I think I am doing that. Maybe I am just starting in the wrong place, I don't know.
In terms of "waiting" until her "emotional frailty" has passed, that is probably the part I am most defensive about and not conicidentally, the part you get on me the most about. I get what you are saying but WTH, isn't there room in the world for people to be going through something that makes it a little hard to concentrate on other "life altering" things? Isn't it POSSIBLE that there is a better time to talk to her or jump her or whatever you are suggesting I do? I don't mean next year, I just mean when these things are over, like next week. I think I have been pretty consistant in moving forward when I thought the time was right and think, based on the limited success I have had, I have been doing ok with judging when "right" is.
I KNOW that I have been saying these things for a long time, that my W is "going through" things. It's because it's true. I don't think being aware of that and waiting to introduce other "things" into the equation is parenting. Are you suggesting that I just move forward with "my" agenda without reguard for her feelings, or rather her current, temporary situation? Actually I guess you are but I am having a hard time with that.
I have to explain that I have been in ONE relationship (I specify ONE because I don't make it a habit to be involved with women like this) where "stuff" happened to her all the time. It was crazy. It seemed like every week it was a new crisis. Finally, I LEFT HER and moved on because the drama was too much. So, I KNOW what it's like to be with someone who does that and that is NOT my W. The things she is going through, the DUI case mainly, ARE ANOMOLYS in her/our life.
If it looks like I am making excuses, then fine, let it look like that. I am unconcerned about how it looks.
Am I afraid of "doing" certain things, sure I am. That is obvious, but more than that, I just don't know what else I could be doing.
OT, PM is pretty good, but where I am now in it is really not applicable which is why I think I didn't read last night.
OT, I am sorry for the tone of some of this post but you have to understand, to me, where I have been in this marriage and really all my life in relationships, these "little things" are HUGE and it's taking me time to build on them. I'm also sorry if in this matter I just fail to get it. I feel like you are trying to help but it's not getting through. Whatever you are suggesting I need to do is not something that either I feel I can do, or want to do right now.
I in NO way feel my marriage is over. I think, judging where we were, or have been in our marriage, this thing we are building (and I am speaking for myself) IS new, and IS different enough to lead to the more passionate, fulfilling relationship that we BOTH want. I KNOW I am making progress and actually see my lack of patience, something I see OT as actually encouraging for some reason, as my greatest danger.
I have waited this long, and seen progress all the while, I am not about to rush into something just for the sake of, well, for the sake of being impatient.
I just wish, as do ALL of us that are lucky enough to get to this point in our sitches, that my W would start reciprocating but then again, I know from reading what I have read, and observing many other people's sitches, that these things can take time, much more time than I have given it to this point.
Look, I have NO doubt that my W's intentions are good. I know she wants to find a way back into a meaningful R with me and continue our marriage. She has not said or done ONE thing since committing to that that would make me doubt her on that. In this respect, I think I am in a really good place in my sitch. Unlike some others, my W has not wavered or seemed confused at all about what she wants, it's just the doing part that she is struggling with.
I think it will be up to me to help get that "doing" part on track and as I said to OT, I WILL do that and sooner than later.
I am willing to take the risks, which the changes I have implemented in my life so far, are to me already. I will take more, and bigger ones because I DO want to save my marriage and I know the work is not done yet by a LONG shot.
Sorry you are going thru this...your post to OT carried so much pain...it's very palpable even thru cyber space.
I may not offer very good advice, but here's an idea. I agree with OT and what she said. I also really don't believe that your W's "temporary situation" has anything to do with sex. BS- she could probably use something to relieve her stress.
GH - find some 180's you can do. Do you and your W email each other during the day? Go to Oh, what's the name of that store....Spencer's - they sell some adult oriented stuff. Go buy one of those adult games....the one where you & your wife can "DO" things without doing "IT". And tell her. Email her, say tonight we're going to make some time for each other....and OH, by the way honey, we're NOT going to make love. We're just going to play this game for a half an hour. Ya know what, I'll bet THAT will pique your W's interest. Knowing that while you want to ML, you're not going to make any moves other than what's in the game.
Better yet - tell HER to go to the mall and get a game of HER choosing. If she can - of course, I know, the drivers license thing and all. Maybe this sounds completely off the wall, GH, and contrary to the way you're trying to handle things. But it doesn't look like your way is working, either.
GH, I didn't mean to imply that your marriage was over. I don't think mine is either. Although, I have a huge trust issue right now and have been told so many lies that sometimes it is hard for me to believe things that H tells me about our future. He could be telling me these things to shut me up and pacify me all the while making promises of a life with the OW. Who the heck knows.....
What I do know is that our marrage cannot improve without a physical relationship, in fact it will die a slow and painful death. I have made attempts but he does not seem responsive so I back off for fear of making a fool of myself and being rejected.
If OT or anyone for that matter can give some suggestions on how to move forward, it would sure be appreciated.
I may not offer very good advice, but here's an idea. I agree with OT and what she said. I also really don't believe that your W's "temporary situation" has anything to do with sex. BS- she could probably use something to relieve her stress.
You often offer VERY good advice...
As for my W, fine, maybe you're both right and maybe it's just all in my head that the first time we ML in over 8 or is it 9 months would be at a time when she is CLEARLY stressed out beyond belief. I guess I can see the wisdom in that "blowing off some steam" but, well, I just can't see that happening. Maybe I am creating a self-fulfilling prophecy here. I don't know. I THINK I am right but doubt is creeping in for sure.
In terms of all the sex games and such, again, I DO suggest things like that. I know I don't just go DO them but WTH. She expresses NO INTEREST AT ALL in me. To me it's like working with someone for awhile and instead of asking them out on a date, you just go by them a couple sex toys and ask them over for a late night "conversation". That's just not how I operate. To get a little personal, we DO use "toys" in our sex life, and are pretty adventerous about sex in general. We both seem to enjoy that aspect of our sex life. So, going to the store and buying something like that would not really be a 180 in general. I could just go upstairs and get something out of the drawer instead.
In the past, I HAVE done things like that and she didn't like it. She wants to be romanced I think. She wants to be pursued on a daily basis. She wants to feel like I think she's special, not just someone to f--k every Friday night.
Like I think I have said before, maybe in not so clear words, we have never had a problem with the "fun" f--king kind of sex, it's the romantic, "I am into you SO much it hurts" kind of ML that has REALLY been lacking and I blame that almost 100% on the TOTAL lack of physical intimacy OUTSIDE the bedroom that would convey my interest in her not just for sex, but as a hot, sexual woman. I never understood that. I am DOING that now, and I think I am laying the groundwork for the next step but for God's sake, I just want to take that step when the time is not so wrong, not even that it has to be "right".
I guess I am doing one of two things right now. I am either trying to justify my position, or I am actually becomming clear about what I am doing and that I DO have a plan that IS working. Being challenged, I had to think about this and in doing so, realize that she IS moving closer to me, just not at the pace I'd like, which is why I don't think I need to so much change my approach as actually communicate with her openly and directly about what we are doing, or not doing.
I hope I am off my defensive soapbox now. OT's post DID get me going and I didn't know if that was a good thing. I guess it was after all...until the next one, lol.
NM, I WILL try different things, but like I said, those things you suggest are not really THAT different than our past. I used to go to the "store" sometimes and surprise her with things. She would even ask me to get certain things she wanted to try so again, as much as it may have seemed like this was not an area we "explored" it was.
That said, I will think MUCH more about what you and OT said. I truly will.
Quote: If OT or anyone for that matter can give some suggestions on how to move forward, it would sure be appreciated.
Amen sister!
Quote: GH, I didn't mean to imply that your marriage was over. I don't think mine is either. Although, I have a huge trust issue right now and have been told so many lies that sometimes it is hard for me to believe things that H tells me about our future. He could be telling me these things to shut me up and pacify me all the while making promises of a life with the OW. Who the heck knows.....
No problem, I guess my response to you was still kinda about OT's post.
Also, without seeming to be slighting YOUR sitch, I was trying to say that I don't THINK my W has lied to me outright in some time. I DO think she may have had contact with OM, but I have NO evidence of that OR even anything that would make me suspicious other than the simple fact that it would be EASY for her to do. In that way, I think our sitches are a bit different.
I don't feel like trust is an issue I struggle with daily anymore so it's really all about the progress of our relationship or lack-thereof.
Quote: What I do know is that our marrage cannot improve without a physical relationship, in fact it will die a slow and painful death. I have made attempts but he does not seem responsive so I back off for fear of making a fool of myself and being rejected.
Oh, you mean like the slow, painful death my relationship already went through for similar reasons (I think)? I feel the same way but like I keep saying, I AM doing things differently and she can't help but notice. I don't think she either trusts me that it's real...
(actually she said this in the last R talk, that all my "romance" seems to be something I am trying to do to impress her...or something like that, to which I replied, BS and you know it...she said she DID know it but needed more time to "KNOW" it)
...or she is feeling stressed about life in general and not thinking about "that" right now...or she is feeling guilty about the recent past and it's a barrier...or who knows what else....
What I KNOW is that I am committed to doing something to change the situation but it does NOT have to be today. I may be feeling the pressure and frustration but hey, what else is new. I have chosen to live this for the last 6 months or so, what's another day or two or week?
I think the most important thing you can focus on is how to set meaningful boundaries without viewing them as an attack or ultimatum or whatever against another person. I see in your posts about your own sitch and to others that you are very reluctant to set clear boundaries about what you are and are not willing to accept in your interactions with others.
Your boundaries should not really be contingent on how another person is going to react to them.
Of course there are better and worse times for things. Clearly, pursuing a romantic R with W when she was out of the M would be inappropriate. Only you can tell if the stress of the DUI problem (which you are curiously minimizing right now, but sounds like it is really a symptom of your W's longstanding pattern of using alcohol to cope with her unhappiness) is making this a bad time. A couple of weeks isn't going to make a difference.
However, the emotional coddling is more of the same from you. What will be different is if you stop it in a few weeks as you suggested.
I emotionally coddled my XH for years and it did no one any good. He probably felt emasculated. I would expect your W also feels not much like a real woman with you. Her OM probably treated her as a strong passionate independent woman and dealt with her as an adult who could handle things with little BS.
Your W has told you over and over again that she prefers you to be direct. You get better results when you are direct. Yet, you aren't on this issue. I doubt that OM had much of a problem telling her what he wanted sexually and eventually what he would require to continue the A, even while she was saying NO to him and protesting.
She has even told you that she despises the status quo. Has she told you that she doesn't want to address this for a few weeks? Has she told you that living in a sexless M makes her life less stressful? Have you shared with her your feelings? What you want? What you are willing to accept? What your actions will be in different scenarios? Do you know your own boundaries here at all?
My suggestion is to continue to read PM and to talk to your C.
BTW, I think your W is well aware that there is a problem with sex in your M and is not happy with it. Perhaps she would read PM with you. You are the one choosing to try to manage the whole problem on your own without sharing in it with your W as a romantic P.
If you think about it, your current actions to me sound like they are designed to sexually DECHARGE any physical intimacy between you. This doesn't sound as though it is likely to cause any sparks to me.
How far do you think you would have gotten without the bomb? Your W hasn't gotten the bomb and your continued acceptance of the status quo and emotional coddling actively contributes to her staying stuck. Your reluctance to explore, define, and maintain your own boundaries is keeping you stuck.
Do you know what? Your M might not work out. Your W might never turn into the romantic P that you want. Or, things might work out. Your W might become the full participant and partner in your M that you want. You can either figure out which way things will go or you can stay stuck in an empty life until your W determines which way they will go.
